-
Interesting how self-deluded "leaders" think that sycophants are friends. Wah, wah, wah... the whine that reaches Hell.
If you were only interested in the truth. You are not. You are a liar and a dishonest dishrag who has no life.
Your wonderful recount of who I am and what happened to me is so full of direct lies and lies by omission that I won't even bother responding to them.
Regarding the sheep... 1. The only reason my evidence was not sufficient proof to the judge that my dogs did not kill the sheep is that I was not there when the sheep were killed; nothing less and nothing more; ask the judge or the murderer's attorney; 2. I did not have to pay for court costs; the plaintiff did; 3. that a mountain lion was seen in the neighborhood is both a matter of record in the logs of Shelby Animal Control and it was also told to my wife outside the court, while waiting to testify by the moron's next door neighbor; the presence of coyotes in our area (we are across the street from a 77,000 acre state park) is also a matter of record - I have local publication that printed it several times over the last 10 years; 4. I did not take a penny from the creep - Instead, I had him donate a paltry sum to the Bama Bully Rescue. 5. Almost every one of the members or fosters in the Bama Bully Rescue organization are either veterinarians, vet techs, work for animal rescues or shelters, or are somehow helping keep the population safe and stop cruelty to animals and their slaughter by the hundreds of thousands every year; every one of them is a kind, genuine caring person; not a single asshole among them - something that can hardly be said about the shrill whiners that populates this stinky swamp you call a blog; 6. Go ahead - kill Pit Bulls - I beg you. They are getting killed anyway - at least this way I can watch you idiots get what's yours. Listen to Dawn. She will get you fined and maybe even see some prison time. I only wish. - July 23, 2012 10:52 PM
you can leave a comment here or join in the conversation there.
"almost every one of the members or fosters in the bama bully rescue org are either vets, vet techs, work for animal rescues or shelters, or are somehow helping keep the population safe and stop cruelty to animals and their slaughter by the hundreds of thousands every year"
ReplyDeletethis makes these people good because they are working for pitbulls? what of the victims of pitbulls ? we are ones working for them . ass-holes.
this fuck-wit says : go ahead , kill shit bulls- i beg you.
ReplyDeletehey thanks andrew pit-for-brains. im hardy going to be faulted for protecting myself and my own by reasonable , normal folks . i have a pretty good idea that people like you make a lot of noise but still are a small minority of kooks and deviants from society . even if i was to be fined and or go to jail it wouldnt stop me , nothing would .
this idiot says he wont bother responding to so-called lies and omissions made by dawn , then immediately does just that. how foolish.
ReplyDeleteCompletely aside from anything to do with animals, I find it disturbing that this man, who is clearly at the least a sociopath, has a license to practice in Alabama that means he in any way has people looking at him as an authority figure.
ReplyDeleteScary. Is there some way we can bring him to the attention of AL licensing authorities?
Snarky, I just copied the same quote as you, #5. It's a glaring contradiction to say that someone wants to keep the population safe, stop cruelty to animals and their slaughter while saving and keeping pit bulls. The wholesale slaughter and mutilation that pits are responsible for, animal and human, is the highest of any other breed/type of dog.
ReplyDeleteAbsurd that any pit bull rescue claims to "rescue" dogs. They want to save the pitbull, the breed who's purpose is to kill other dogs.
ReplyDeleteAndrew thinks craven's website works like a pit nutter website, where one person says some bullshit and everyone else repeats it without thinking too much. That isn't how it works. I read the facts in the multi-part series, thanks. I don't need someone to tell me what to think because the evidence is damning.
ReplyDeleteSputnik2009: You can indeed report this person to state licensing boards.
ReplyDeleteMatter of fact, that would be an excellent idea. I think they'd be very interested in the hostile and threatening tone of voice he uses.
National professional associations might also be concerned about his behavior.
Andrew conjures up these dreamy fantasies about mountain lions in an attempt to instill doubt. All while the farmer's 2 sheep are dead and his pit bulls were on the farmer's property.
ReplyDeleteDelusional.
Oh and I bet Andrew's neighbors hate him more than we do. :)
ReplyDeleteThere was a time, a time when people were not so "in bed" with dogs, where the owner of dogs that killed livestock would be shaking the hand of the good citizen that removed the marauding beasts from society. It was called common sense. Instead, these days, there are nut jobs that actually call the good citizen a "murderer." Ridiculous! Funny how he says the ONLY reason is that he wasn't there. Exactly! You weren't there. Somehow, pit nutters seem to think that any explanation they come up, even when they weren't there, is gospel truth. They speculate what really happened on every pit attack article. They flood the comments with "there's more to the story, and here's what really happened..."
ReplyDeleteNutty nut nutters!
But these days, I guess we have to wait to kill a marauder until we actually see it in the savage act. Or when it is running up to it's victim, ready to attack. Hey, I can do that. No problem. And I will be called a hero, not a murderer, except, or course, by the pittie people, who will scream, "Why did you have to kill him? He just wanted to play! He only got rough because you screamed and scared him! He was scared and just protecting his territory! He's so intelligent, that he could read your mind from 6 blocks away, and just knew you were going to go into HIS yard, so he made a preemptive strike! He deserves a medal for doing what he's supposed to do!"
ReplyDeleteI will gladly wear the badge of "Pit killer" except that I hope I never have to.
"1. The only reason my evidence was not sufficient proof to the judge that my dogs did not kill the sheep is that I was not there when the sheep were killed; nothing less and nothing more; ask the judge or the murderer's attorney;"
ReplyDeleteWhat evidence did you have aside from:
1. a sighting of a coyote nearby the day prior to the attack on the sheep
2. supposed sighting of a mountain lion, a species thought extirpated from AL (guess what, people all over the US claim to have spotted mountain lions every year just like they see big foot)
3. your certificates that your dogs behaved well enough to pass the canine good citizen test etc and your testament to their good behavior
Is that all? This certainly is very MINOR evidence against your dogs doing this. I know Andy has to preserve his dog's memory.
Imagine if a young male is found in the room with a recently killed person. His defense is that someone saw a guy wearing a trench coat nearby yesterday and also he is an Eagle Scout. Big deal.
@Opalina said "There was a time, a time when people were not so "in bed" with dogs..."
ReplyDeleteAnd I do miss that time. I also think that a lot of these dog worshippers are compensating for their lack of success in developing relationships with humans.
Andrew can end all this right now by simply posting the court transcripts.
ReplyDeleteAll of this complaining about the senseless slaughter of animals...I wonder if he is a vegetarian? Or are pit bulls the only animals who count?
ReplyDeleteThe culprit wasn't a mountain lion OR coyotes...it was a one-armed man!
ReplyDeleteI'd love to hear what the owner of the sheep testified to in court.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThere have been UFO sightings out there, maybe the UFOs mutilated the sheep?!
Just ignore the fact that the farm owner saw your pits there! It's UFOOOOOOsssss!
Here is another pitter in denial.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpOVjgeYk08is
Too bad the shooter got charged for this one.
Yet another pitter in denial. Extra points for the theory that a mountain lion or stray dogs jumped over that six foot chain link fence into a pen with 17 pit bulls, killed the pastor, and jumped out again. Watch the video for the full effect.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=222459&odyssey=mod_mostread
Andrew is not the first, or even the most creative pitter in denial.
OK... I am willing to learn.. but, please, no name calling. Can we have a honest discussion in which we can actually exchange ideas?
ReplyDeleteHere is my defense - verbatim:
Small Claims Defense
-----------------------
The plaintiff’s complaint states that “Defendant allowed vicious dogs to roam loose and they killed plaintiff’s sheep in violation of Code Section 3-1-6.”
I. I did not allow the dogs to roam loosely
1.They escaped from our fenced yard because the ground was soft from the rains we had;
2. I did not allow them and I was not negligent; it was an inadvertent accident;
3. After each “escape,” I endeavored to fix whatever vulnerability there was in our containment system.
II. There are no local leash laws for dogs in Indian Springs Village
See my Commentary in the Village Voice from 2010 in which I thank the people of Indian Springs for being so dog-friendly and such decent neighbors;
III. My dogs were not vicious
By history, my dogs were not dangerous and have never shown a propensity for aggressiveness against people or animals of any sort, including our family cats; [see photos]
1. I have spent over $1,100 in training and learning to train my dogs; Attachment #11
2. I am a doctoral level animal behaviorist, therefore have expertise in dog behavior;
3. My dogs have never shown the slightest aggression toward either people or animals of ANY sort; this includes the family cats; See photos;
4. Pit Bulls are not considered inherently vicious according to Alabama Supreme Court decision of 2002.
Statements against Breed Specific Legislation by ALL the major animal organization, including the American Medical Veterinary Association support my contention that Pit Bulls terriers are not vicious;
The plaintiff’s take on calling my dogs “vicious” is unsubstantiated by evidence, law, or consensus.
It is prejudiced and may have prompted the plaintiff to kill two innocent dogs. He saw two Pit Bull Terriers in his yard, ASSUMED they were vicious and killed them.
IV. My dogs did not kill the plaintiff’s sheep; coyotes are the more likely culprits.
I found the dead dogs outside the area where the sheep were; there they separated by a tall fence;
The sheep were in rigor mortis, one more advanced than the other, indicating death of at least 3 hours;
The dogs were warm and limp;
The deaths of the sheep and the dogs were separated by significant time, perhaps hours;
There was no blood either in or on the mouths of the dogs, nor over their faces;
Sandor, the larger, male dog, was crippled; he had the Anterior Cruciate Ligaments (ACLs)of BOTH his hind legs ruptured, bilaterally. The dog was not able to jump an inch; he could not even climb up to the bed, had to be lifted;
Coyotes were reported to Animal Control no more than a few yards from Mr. Snider’s property just the week before the incident on June 17, 2011.
Wild dogs and coyotes were killing our pets and domestic animals as far back as 12 years ago. They still do.
V. The plaintiff’s demand for payment vastly exceeds the value of the sheep.
1. Data collected off the Internet indicates that the price of Katahdin sheep, at the time of this incident was between $1.85 to $2.85 per lb. live weight;
2. Assuming an average weight of 100-to-120 lbs, even at maximum value, the price of Mr. Snider’s sheep is no more than $342.00.
FYI-Rozsa is posting on part 2 of the series dedicated to him.
ReplyDeleteAndrew, your dogs "don't fart without asking" you. So why did they dig under the fence & leave their home when you weren't looking? A properly trained dog doesn't just run off, away from its home at the first opportunity, nor do they DIG for an opportunity. It doesn't matter how much money you spent on training if the training wasn't effective, and based on the behavior of your escape-artist dogs, it wasn't. Get over it.
ReplyDeleteYour CV does not indicate that you are an animal behaviorist. It does indicate you might've spent some time watching the healing of wounded rabbit eyes, however.
ReplyDeleteFrom 1967 to 1971 I trained lizards to distinguish between left and right. I was working on comparative intelligence. From 1972 to 1980 I worked with cats, dogs, opossums, rats, mice, and Rhesus monkeys on different behavioral tasks that were related to sensory systems. From 1981 until 1984 I worked with rabbits on healing of wounds, and the neurophysiology of pain, using the cornea as a model (free nerve endings).
ReplyDeleteYou've officiated over a lot of pain and misery, Andrew, and, unsurprisingly, you chose a breed that is eager to mete out pain-yet is almost insensitive to it! Hey! Someone should study YOU!
DeleteOK, I'm not educated, I barely made it out of high school, but I'm an old lady, I've seen many things, and I can assure you, that is not the work of a mountain lion. Coyotes? My friend keeps sheep and I was there when 3 coyotes got into the pasture-when Dee threw on the floodlight, all 3 had pinned a single sheep, while the others milled, frantic but unhurt at the far end of the pasture--I know that wolves will go on "blood sprees", as will dogs, but what I've seen of coyotes has been, dash furtively in, get the job done, and gone.
A small point: were the carcasses used as food by the mountain lion or coyote? Dogs don't usually eat their victims--like man, the joy is in the kill.
Andy, it seems you would like to be a forensic pathologist as well.
ReplyDeleteYou do know that time to rigor mortis is HEAVILY dependent upon temperature. Can you guess the direction of the relationship? At high temperature, rigor mortis can start within 30 minutes. What month did this occur in? And what is the average day time high in your area then?
Dub - after I got Sandor, when he was 8 weeks old, I also spent 2 years with one of the best dog behaviorists in Birmingham learning (one-on-one) how to train dogs and specifically dogs with behavioral problems. Sandor was truly a sweet dog from the very beginning.
ReplyDeleteDub - email me. I did my homework.
ReplyDeleteIf this is related to dog training, then why did you need to pay over 1K for training in that area? I used to study the breeding migration of salamanders which is obviously a behavior. Never made me a better dog owner.
ReplyDeleteNah, don't want to set up a shadow account to email you. I don't trust my personal info with most people related to this issue.
ReplyDeleteWhat you would need to do, to really do your homework, is know or assume something about the relative rate of rigor mortis between sheep and dogs and their relative thermal relationship with the environment. Then you would have to place your dogs in a situation similar to the sheep and see how long until your dogs developed rigor mortis. Subtracting the two after applying any correction factors based upon differences between sheep/dog might give you a plausible window of time between the sheep and dog deaths.
DubV - I didn't feel prepared to deal with dogs on a daily bases and I wanted to have well-behaved and likable dogs. I was not going go into dog ownership unprepared: it would have unfair to the dogs, to me, to my family, and my neighbors.
ReplyDeleteBTW, my son's dog was NEVER tied/chained up. In fact, after we put up the dog run and the fence, a neighbor down the street complained that since Birthie couldn't go where she wanted, his dog didn't have anybody to play with. So, Birthie was pretty much a yard dog by her choice.
Also, an animal that struggles before it dies enters rigor mortis more quickly due to a build up of lactic acid. Andrew, you won't be talking with vet tech nutters on this blog site.
ReplyDeleteDub - you can use a free throw away account - I have been very much up-front about who I am and what I am. Does I really appear to you that I would an untrustworthy person? Clearly, you have done your homework about me. You know I am an open book. All we are dealing with her is a difference of opinion about some dogs. This shouldn't make us or break us. IMHO.
ReplyDeleteAndrew said "1.They escaped from our fenced yard because the ground was soft from the rains we had;
ReplyDelete2. I did not allow them and I was not negligent; it was an inadvertent accident;
3. After each “escape,” I endeavored to fix whatever vulnerability there was in our containment system."
How many accidental escapes were there?
Andrew said "Sandor, the larger, male dog, was crippled; he had the Anterior Cruciate Ligaments (ACLs)of BOTH his hind legs ruptured, bilaterally. The dog was not able to jump an inch; he could not even climb up to the bed, had to be lifted;"
How might you explain the escape of a dog crippled to this degree? How far and how fast might he have been able to run?
Andrew said " There are no local leash laws for dogs in Indian Springs Village"
Andrew, respect for neighbors would demand containment of dogs, of whatever breed, without laws demanding it.
Andrew said "I have spent over $1,100 in training and learning to train my dogs"
Andrew, it does not take long to spend this kind of money. A series of eight classes at the facility where I train runs probably $100. Start with Puppy Socialization, Household Pet, Attention, CGC Preparation, lots of folks stay in Novice for a year or more before starting on Open work. You have two dogs that are/were running off. That $1100 was less than a year of regular training classes for each of your dogs, a drop in the bucket.
Thank you for attempting a dialog, and I am trying to understand your thought process. Please try to understand the thoughts of pit bull victims. You ask that names not be called, please review what you have written to others. We are not "idiots" or "shrill whiners" deserving to "get what's yours" or "some prison time." We are survivors of pit bull violence.
@april 29: Via his lengthy and self-justifying commentary, Andrew has made it quite clear that he couldn't care less about survivors of pit bull violence. Or those who might be the victims of such dogs.
ReplyDeletePeople or livestock who might suffer because of the choices Andrew has made mean nothing to him. Nothing at all.
Instead, it's all about Andrew! All the time! There's nothing more important in this world than Andrew! Nothing at all!
He's a narcissist with a big case of the entitlement mentality.
Quoting Andrew:
ReplyDelete"Does I really appear to you that I would an untrustworthy person?"
What you appear to be and what you are seem to be very different things. For starters, I think you're a self-involved twit who feels the need to call attention to himself. And how better to do it than through your choice of dog?
Grow up, Andrew.
April - 1. The dogs have gotten out 4 times total in 4 years. Sandor liked to wander, smell new areas, the female, Tisza, just followed him. I wrote an article to the local newsletter about the kindness of my neighbors, since, whenever "Houdini" escaped, they called me to tell me they were playing with the dogs and I can come and pick them up. I always added some additional feature to the containment areas, as I learned how they got out. I should have been more vigilant, but I honestly did not think they would ever harm anybody or anything. They had no history or inclination. They were well-adjusted, friendly, loving animals. Even my wife, who is a cat lover, liked them.
ReplyDelete2. The ACLs. I brought a emergency vet's report to Court. Sandor could walk, but always paid the price. He was exhausted after a few minutes in the yard. I had to move the feeding downstairs, because he couldn't climb the stairs anymore. The neighbor with the sheep is about 10 houses from h=ours, bu the dogs could cut through the backyards. The sheep were in an enclosure that had fences that were 8-ft tall. The man said my dogs jumped the fence. And, then, they must have out, too, because he shot them in a different enclosure altogether - that one with open gate.
3. "Andrew, respect for neighbors would demand containment of dogs, of whatever breed, without laws demanding it." I absolutely agree. I thought I had it covered. Clearly I was mistaken.
4. Training. I worked with a guy who is an expert at dealing with "tough" dogs. He trains guard dogs for the troupes abroad in order to protect "high value assets." Aaron sent me a copy of the bill for the Court. We did Puppy, Obedience, Advanced Obedience, Hand (Silent) Signals, and Off-Leash Control. The sessions were one-on-one, at home, $75/hr.
5. You are right about the name calling. I was not aware of Dawns "project." I read it last night and I was really upset. I should have held my tongue (fingers) and waited until I cooled down. The original argument started with Dawn advocating the killing of dogs if you feel threatened. I commented that one needs to be cautious, because simply killing a dog because it is a Pit Bull can end up in a legal and financial problem for the shooter. The response was the diatribe. The man who shot my dogs got the price of his sheep and I got the value of loss of affection, loss of companionship, and the sentimental value of my dogs, NOT the value of dogs as property, as Dawn suggested. The opinion of Courts has been changing and I advise caution.
I will terminate my conversation here by stating that if I offended anyone I am deeply sorry and I apologize. My advocacy for these dogs comes the heart. I resent being thrown in the same bag as the criminals and cruel people who create the monsters that harm people. Luckily, I have never met any of them and I hope I never will. I, and my friends, advocate responsible ownership, regardless of breed or the type of animal you have. I believe that a properly SELECTED and trained APBT can be a wonderful dog for some people. I believe that some of the Pit Bulls should be put to sleep. I believe ALL Pit Bulls should be neutered or spayed. I just don't believe that a city agency, frequently without any training at all, should have the ability to come into my house and take my dogs and kill them because they are a certain breed.
All of those who have been harmed by a Pit Bull, please accept sincerest apologies from me and all of us who love and care for the breed. My heart reaches out to you and I'll pray for your peace of mind and soul. May you never have a similar experience, EVER.
Kind regards to all.
" The sheep were in an enclosure that had fences that were 8-ft tall."
ReplyDeleteI thought the ground was soft and easily dug that day?
Andrew, I agree with april 29. How many escapes were there before you realized the fence just wasn't working??? Don't you know what pit bulls are physically capable of where jumping/fences are concerned? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RebXZCL62E) Haven't you read the HSUS study showing pits are 16x more likely to escape confinement than other breeds?
ReplyDeleteI have had dogs since 1966 and have had exactly two escapes (by different dogs, different houses, different escape methods) in 46 years...
I had a human-friendly but extremely predatory Jack Russell who was very difficult to contain. He could easily scale a 6' wall, dig under anything, etc. To contain him, I did the following: 5' chain link fence with top and bottom bars; 2' of fence buried in the ground under that; electric hot wires at the bottom and top of the fence; AND an underground (electric shock) fence system INSIDE all of that. And that was for a 14 lb. Jack Russell who was also the #2 obedience JRT in America and an award-winning therapy dog in both the USA and UK.
You can bet that if I had pit bulls, I would have an 8' fence with hot wires all the way up AND the dogs would be muzzled every time I let them out into the yard. Anything less is just irresponsible when you have a breed that has been bred for nothing but KILLING OTHER LIVING BEINGS for the past 150 years.
And by the way, why didn't you get your poor dog's ACLs repaired??? My JRT got a torn ACL and I drove across the state four times to do his $1850 ortho surgery and followups even though I had to put the whole thing on a credit card. I can't believe you would just let a dog walk around with untreated torn ACLs in both knees. Ouch!
I have another comment to make about a "disabled" dog's ability to kill livestock.
ReplyDeleteWhen I had a 10 acre farm in Missouri and lived by other farms, there was a string of animal killings that took place over a summer. My neighbors--both professors--had about 5 of their 15 sheep mutilated. They'd come home and find a little lamb dragging itself around the farm with two legs chewed off and a broken neck. It was awful. I came home to find my 4' duck turnout pen had been breached, and three of my five pet ducks dead. The sheep-owning neighbors then started losing chickens.
I had the County Extension set up live traps, but caught only innocent wildlife, including foxes, raccoons, skunks, etc.
Finally, the sheep-owning neighbors caught the dog red-handed. It was a very fat female yellow Lab with a huge fatty tumor hanging under her tummy. As they were leaving for the university, they saw the dog come over their 4' fence and kill a chicken before they could even get out of the car.
They called the dog over and it jumped right into their car, wagging its tail. It was wearing tags, and they easily located the owner. The owner turned out to be a wealthy local government official (lawyer) who lived in a fancy residential community about a mile away. The dog was a 12 year old (!) very fat Lab with a tumor. Still, she had nooooo problem clearing fences.
As an addendum, this lawyer paid for the sheep and ducks (my ducks had a "value" of $3 each, despite being pets and having a $2000 duck house and pen). However, he never admitted wrongdoing and refused to believe his dog was involved.
Fast forward a month or so. I had bought some new ducks, which were in their pen, and I was mowing the lawn on my tractor. The yellow Lab and a black Lab buddy came racing down the street, into my property, and started jumping up on the duck fence trying to get inside to kill more ducks. As I ran to stop them, the lawyer came racing up on foot. He had followed them from his house (he owned both dogs). Not wanting to "mess up the look of his yard," he wouldn't put in a normal fence, so instead bought shock collars and was trying in an amateurish way to shock the dogs if they started to leave the property. They left anyway, and he decided to follow them. And they led him straight to my duck pen.
Epilogue: The lawyer decided the dogs were too much of a liability. So what did he do? He gave them to a FRIEND IN THE COUNTRYSIDE so they could have "room to run." Wonder how many more sheep they've killed since then?
The lesson of this story is that fat, disabled, elderly dogs of even FRIENDLY breeds... dogs with respectable / educated / wealthy owners... can still be sheep and livestock killers. A dog can be perfectly friendly with humans, dogs and cats and still kill livestock.
Other dogs can love livestock but kill cats. And still others can be great with THEIR pet bunny, but kill bunnies or cats that they see outdoors. Predatory behavior has nothing to do with whether a dog is people-friendly or obedience trained.
Sharon - see my response to April. As far as the ACLs are concerned... surgery ($4500) was schedule for 3 weeks after the dogs were killed. It was the surgeon's schedule. Since then, my present foster, Charlie Brown, has had a bowel occlusion last month and it cost $3,385 to have his surgery.
ReplyDeletefunny how different parties can look at the same incident and have completely different takes on it. my experience is that people who like pit-bulls will never see eye to eye with their victims and opponents , no matter how damning the evidence. ive seen the same thing over and over and have given up expecting anything different from these types of people. i think i understand and accept the dogs behavior as a result of breeding and also environment but the humans behind the problem are harder for me to understand and forgive.
ReplyDeleteWow that was an awful lot of bullshit, all just to avoid the obvious conclusion that his dogs killed some sheep. Jesus fucking christ.
ReplyDeleteNuttery leaves people unable to deal with the consequences of their dog's behavior, so they go into crazy tailspin meltdown mode to try and deflect from the obvious.
I was reading up about rigor mortis after Andrew's post. I knew about temperature vastly increasing the onset of rigor mortis, but then read about struggle doing this (think of really stiff muscles after a workout) which made sense. I then read in various forensic books about near instant rigor mortis after valiant struggles to stave off drowning. But I wanted a study of mammal preferably at various temperatures, etc. Here's the closest I found (excuse the bad spacing via pdf copying)
ReplyDelete"In the present study, although great efforts have been taken
to lessen animals’ struggle at slaughter, struggles still happened
on two animals, one male and one female. Unexpectedly, the
breast muscles did not have the delay and rigor stages (Fig. 4).
This could be because the muscles had depleted all glycogen at
struggle which led to immediate rigor at slaughter (Berri et al.,
2005)."
from
Tracing processes of rigor mortis and subsequent resolution of chicken breast
muscle using a texture analyzer
It is of chickens. But struggle can lead to near immediate rigor mortis. Now add in struggling for your life against pit bull attack while under the AL sun and wearing a wool coat and then being left for dead in it afterward. I have no idea if the effects of temperature and struggle are additive or multiplicative in this case, but I leave the writing on the wall. Andrew's judgement of the rigor mortis in these sheep cannot be evidence of anything, regardless of how much homework he has done
I have another study where dog heart tissue kept at 98.6 F began rigor mortis in 30 minutes. I won't post the link, you get the idea.
ReplyDeleteHello
ReplyDeleteI'm cross-posting my response from the other thread because I want to contribute and don't know whether the other thread's dead...this is a cut-and-post...hope it doesn't disrupt the discussion here!
"I spent a lifetime helping people (thousands of them), yet I am called names and accused of incredible deeds, which according to you and your cohorts are comparable to Hitler's mass murders. Dawn quoting Goebbels is not helping your cause."
Sir, this is sneaky, misleading, and utterly baseless. Where did Dawn James--or any contributor here--say that you were accused of "incredible deeds" with are "comparable to Hilter's mass murders?" That is an outrageous and insulting accusation.
If you show me where I am wrong, I will retract that statement.
Dawn James has not accused you of "incredible deeds." In this series of articles, there is nothing "incredible" about your behavior as pit bull owner or your decisions. Indeed, your naivete and arrogance about your pet dogs is positively UBIQUITOUS--as is your callous disregard for the well-being of your neighbor's livestock/pets.
Lastly, why is it bad for Dawn to quote Geobbels? What is your point? Researchers shouldn't quote from major historical figures? You just put a million Political Theory Ph.D.'s out of business. Liberal (Conservative here in the USA, as I'm sure you know, sir) economists quote from Karl Marx in their academic publications all the time.
You just bring that Goebbels quote to suggest some guilt by association. Dawn James was making a point about PROPAGANDA, and you know it. A high-school student could infer that from the reading. There is nothing wrong with your reading comprehension. You did that on purpose.
It doesn't help your cause.
P.S. Big dogs attack livestock all the time, and pit bulls are notorious for this. They attack police horses in urban areas! I'm not fighting with you--just Google it!
ReplyDeleteAnd if your dogs were at large, you did indeed "allow" them out. Like children and the senile, dogs don't need permission to hurt themselves or get into trouble. You didn't intend to, but you DID allow them out. Containing them was your responsibility (and I respectfully disagree with another poster who said that well-trained dogs don't ever run away--many dogs will roam if given the chance).
You allowed them out.
I should say, big dogs harass livestock all the time. It's a crucial distinction.
ReplyDeletethe mutants were out on four different occasions, at least? dogs that escape and roam are going to keep doing it until they are stopped by something , a car , a bullet , poison or A.C. perhaps. the owner knew of the previous escapes and did not prevent a recurrence. being that these were pit-bulls their days were numbered .
ReplyDeletewondering how the male mutant buggered his ligaments , if it was in gladiator training , left on the treadmill or made to go too fast or the gator rope swing exersize. seen pits doing this and it sucks . seen idiots getting their pits to chew up pieces of wood and it just shows what these FUCKING things were made for .
ReplyDeleteI think the lesson here is that if a "Doctoral Level Animal Behaviorist" can't safely contain Pit Bulls, no one can.
ReplyDeletePit owners are threats to themselves, their families and everyone around them. This has been proven time and time and time again, going all the way back to John P. Colby.
Vintage, this sociopath is not a doctoral level animal behaviorist. He's apparently (unfortunately) a clinical psychologist and 'psychobiologist' (whatever that may be?), specialized in pain problems in humans.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.southernpain.com/OurStaff.asp
IF his understanding of neurology and the genetics thereof were adequate, and if he weren't a sociopath, he'd be campaigning to ban all the pit-type dogs due to their genetic brain problems, which have been well documented at this point in the scientific lit. Not that exactly understanding the genetics and neurology matters in light of statistics, but you know, he's not even up on stuff in his SUPPOSED field of expertise.
The man is pathetic. It's kind of a riddle to me why some here are taking so much trouble to argue with him, unless as a kind of note-taking and practice for when y'all meet less pathetic and clearly sociopathic adversaries?
And for the skilled animal trainers among us: Dontcha know that attention is a very strong reinforcement for (undesired) behaviors? Dontcha realize that the more you argue with this sociopath, the more he feels his weeny growing, and the more he'll keep letting his penis-surrogates, sorry, I mean pit bulls, kill neighboring sheep?
Someone should send this idiot a free month's supply of Viagra. That would be more enlightening (as far as solving the problem he EVIDENTLY has) than arguing with him here in words.
@ me: The man is pathetic. It's kind of a riddle to me why some here are taking so much trouble to argue with him, unless as a kind of note-taking and practice for when y'all meet less pathetic and clearly sociopathic adversaries?
ReplyDeleteFor clarity, I meant, less pathetic and less clearly sociopathic....
I would also be very -- but I mean very -- interested to know what generation 'American' Rozsa is.
ReplyDeleteI feel I have a right to ask this question due to being second-generation American myself, thus understanding what it is to carry another culture in our make-up.
Here's another laugher from our friend Andrew:
ReplyDelete"My advocacy for these dogs comes the heart."
Which tells us that Andrew needs to start using that thing up above his eyebrows. It's generally referred to as the brain. And it's quite useful in thinking.
Sputnik: I think that I read on his blog that he came to the US when he was a small boy. I might be wrong about that, though.
ReplyDeletepit bulls and their owners disgust me and so do reseachers that think its their right to experiment on animals , supposedly for the betterment of mankind . thats partly how pit bulls came about , mankind fucking around with things they shouldnt . sorry doctors , all over who feel entitled to do shit for the glory and good of mankind.
ReplyDeleteWoah there snarky. There wouldn't be modern medicine- including medicine used to help animals- if there was not any animal experiementation. It is literally a matter of 1 animal's welfare vs the welfare of everyone else (including future animals and people).
ReplyDeleteThere are tightly controlled protocols on using animals in research. Breeding dogs for blood sports was just a bunch of people fucking around for economic reasons. The end goal of breeding animals for bloodsports is sociopathic, the end goal of research is to help alleviate suffering. I can't compare the two when the goals, methods, and outcomes are so different.
Not really skeptifem. The "tight controls" prevent NO experiment, do not require pain relief if it interferes with the experiment, and specifically excludes the majority of species used in research--mice, rats, birds, and farm animals.
ReplyDeleteWe can agree to disagree, but I would suggest checking out www.navs.org and www.aavs.org for a reasoned and sensible view from the other side.
I'm still trying to figure out what kind of 8' enclosure keeps sheep in, allows coyotes to come and go, but keeps pit bulls out.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rigor claim - this rigor mortis was determined by whom, a disinterested expert who also commented on lividity, etc.? Sheep are compact with nominal range of motion compared to other species. To the inexperienced, they could easily appear to have onset of rigor immediately after death.
And life is so full of coincidences, isn’t it? Somebody's pit bulls get out, sheep are killed, pit bulls are found at the location... "COYOTES DID IT!" Never mind that coyotes are always about; these coyotes waited until the pit bulls were out so they could pin it on the pit bulls. Coyotes are crafty that way!
You know what isn't a coincidence? Somebody's pit bulls get out, sheep are killed, pit bulls are found at the location, and a fucking POS pit bull owner starts heaping one fucking lie on top of another to deny responsibility. That’s not a coincidence – that’s classic pit bull owner bull shit.
What a fucking douche bag.
Thanks Dude for providing actual expertise on rigor mortis. I knew only enough to be aware that Andy didn't know enough to make such claims.
ReplyDeleteskeptifem:
ReplyDeleteobviously its a matter of opinion whether something is ethical or not and of course it depends on what exactly we are talking about. cosmetic testing is different than testing for cancer research . but the idea of people like this pitter rosza doing research on animals eyeballs makes me feel like im right in personal opinions about this.
i read recently that it used to be commonly believed that animals had no feelings of pain , only humans . doctors would nail a dogs feet to a board to immobilize it , then do experimental surgery without anesthetic, of course. im not sure putting caustic substances in a rabbits eyes is much different than that . oh btw , ive heard doctors say what theyd like to do to people who think like me .
ReplyDeletewell, early on in the comments i agreed with sputnik2009 and i was leaning towards not responding at all. until i got to andrew's responses.
ReplyDeletecheck back.
"I'm still trying to figure out what kind of 8' enclosure keeps sheep in, allows coyotes to come and go, but keeps pit bulls out."
ReplyDeleteExcellent observation, Dude.
Dub, I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I have slaughtered and dressed a couple of sheep, not to mention a number of deer and rigor starts very quickly. I don't know where the 3 hour number came from. I decided to Google it and found, "The onset of rigor mortis may range from 10 minutes to several hours." http://chemistry.about.com/cs/biochemistry/a/aa061903a.htm A half hour to 45 minutes is more consistent with my experience, where the legs couldn't be bent enough to load into a deer cart, and that's in cool weather with an animal field dressed and positioned for draining and cooling - something that should cause maximum delay in rigor.
ReplyDeleteif a doctor and animal behaviorist cant come up with a good defense for his pits killing sheep , what chance does a regular uneducated , illiterate trailer dweller have ? dont get that beautifull brindled beauty , trailer folks , stick with nasty chihuahuas. theyr just as aggressive but dont cost you as much or put you back in jail.lol
ReplyDeleteSnarky, skeptifem, I think whatever anyone thinks about vivisection, we can all agree that this (I have now amateurly concluded) psychopath Rozsa needs to be kept out of any and all positions of power, also any position in which he could be perceived as an authority figure, be it to animals or to human patients. He should probably also never be left alone with children.
ReplyDeleteThanks Miss Margo for the cultural info. It will sound politically incorrect, so I won't expand on it, but this tells me much about the complexes this man seems to have. Or at the very least about the expression of said complexes. Hungary is nowadays one of the dogfighting sewer-drains of the EU. So by having pits that kill other animals Rozsa gets both to feel his weeny is bigger AND that he's identifying with his homeland. At least, with the socio/psychopathic parts of that homeland.
Cos ya know, mentally healthy nostalgic-for-home Hungarians choose Pulis, Vizslas or Mudis (all wonderful, social dogs), or if they must have a big bad-looking dog then a Komondor. BTW, if someone's pit kills a sheep in Hungary (or a normal dog, or a horse, or a child), the pit gets summarily shot and the owner has to be glad if he's spared. Dogfighting is a human sewage problem there, but it's gotta be in the ring or otherwise the shit-bull dies, sometimes the owner too, no court involvement, just the community taking care of of a problem -- like we used to here (= USA) back some thirty years ago.
Mr. Psycho-Hungarian Macho-Man wouldn't survive long in his country of origin, I think.
Can we maybe send him back there instead of arguing with him here? Hahaha, see how he survives when there's no State protecting his Tiny Weeny...
re: vivisection, years ago on quiet uneventful nights on the graveyard shift in a psychiatric hospital, i would curl with the PDR (physicians desk reference). it sounds boring but it is fascinating reading, especially the toxicology summaries of drugs. you will find many, many drugs in there that had devastating side effects on rats and mice yet, they made it safely passed the FDA and continue to be safe on humans today. makes me wonder how this crap shoot works. if the first phase of testing harms beagles, rats and mice, then why go on to the next phase of testing? if harmful tests on animals are going to be ignored, why not just skip the non-human animal phase of testing altogether?
ReplyDeletesure, there have been advances in medicine, there has also been catastrophes in the human population by relying on the antiquated practice of sacrificing animals. vivisection is an old way of thinking (think bronze age religion) and it is big business: lab animal magazine, beagle/mice/rat breeders, cage manufacturers, lab animal chow. money interests do not go down without a fight. they will spend whatever they need to spend in order to protect their livelihood. and you can bet that propaganda will play heavily into that.
I'm down with animal testing IF a brilliant scientist with a track record of results states that there is a significant advance in an important area and it can only be attained with animal testing. There are way too many 3rd rate scientists harming animals in poorly designed studies that will only make it into 3rd rate journals.
ReplyDeleteThis is the basis of AVMA, ASPCA, HSUS, and Best Friends Animal Society support for pit bulls. Animal Farm Foundation does not need the cash.
ReplyDelete"money interests do not go down without a fight. they will spend whatever they need to spend in order to protect their livelihood. and you can bet that propaganda will play heavily into that."
"money interests do not go down without a fight. they will spend whatever they need to spend in order to protect their livelihood. and you can bet that propaganda will play heavily into that."
ReplyDeleteBAM! There it is! As is often said, the truth is in the middle. The part not often said... In the middle of the money trail.
**wails**
ReplyDeleteDubV! What have you got against 3rd-rate Journals...? The lowly grad student and the middling bright have to start out SOMEWHERE!
If it weren't for 3rd-rate journals, I never would have gotten my publication in The North American Biannual Review of Public Affairs & Policy!
(this post is facetious. Mostly.)