Saturday, January 1, 2011

the pit nutters' dirty little secret: ATTS

one year ago, i published my most popular blog post. it has been viewed over 2000 times. i didn't intend it to be popular, it just happened. to be perfectly honest, i put almost no thought into it, it was driven by pure rage. let's see if this new year's day blog post can surpass last new year's day blog post.

in november, 23 year old piano teacher, premed student and shelter volunteer ADRIEN P. wrote to dogsbite.org:
What do you think of the American Temperament Test breed statistics? It was designed by PhDs in animal behavior and tests the aggression levels. Here is the link: http://www.atts.org/stats1.html Unlike dog bite statistics which factor in sociological implications, this test only tests one variable. Which is the proper scientific method? We learned that in grade school.
Based on this, pit bulls scored higher than Golden Retrievers. Also, why do all the mainstream organizations discredit you? AVMA, AKC, ASPCA, HSUS to name a few.
I grew up in inner city Chicago, and I am now a Chicago shelter volunteer. I have had first-hand experience with bad rap breeds. I can assure you, it is the owner. Maybe you never lived next to these types, but I have. I know how these people make their dogs mean, and it is disgusting. They drug their dogs to make them extra mean, and physically and mentally abuse them. After witnessing that, you cannot tell me it's not the owner's fault. Instead of banning breeds, we should be attacking dog fighters--much harder to do but alot more effective. I can assure you, if you ban one breed, the thugs will just think up another breed to butcher and you will have just as many dog bites.
Yes dogs do bite, and yes some are born with genetic mental defects (you probably heard of Spaniel rage) but what happens if you give a dog consistent rules and a job? what happens if responsible dog owners learn how to recognize stress/fear and body language warning signs? Regardless of breed, there will be a high likelihood that the dog will turn out fine.
If you cannot legitimately argue against all three of these points: single variable vs. multiple sociological variables, ATT, and the fact that animal behaviorists and vets discredit this site; the site will continue to be void. I'm sorry, but the great majority of academia is superior to multi-variable conclusions.
adrien touched on a subject that i happen to know a lot about. i am an information junkie and even a lot of information is never enough for me. sometimes i have to know everything about a subject and still that isn't enough, i keep looking for more. i thought that i had seen all of the lies about the ATTS but adrien's comment about the test being developed by phds in animal behavior to measure aggression was something that i had not read before. so i wrote to her. the following is our exchange. my comments and replies are italicized to make it easier to follow.


hello adrien,

dogsbite.org shared your email with me. i have a special interest in the ATTS, i have exhaustively researched it and i have never found anything like this before:

"What do you think of the American Temperament Test breed statistics? It was designed by PhDs in animal behavior and tests the aggression levels."

please tell me where [you] got this information.

craven desires


Well, next time you choose to be part of such a hateful website, maybe you should do your research. The test is used to test a dog's reaction to challenging situations and it was developed by professionals in the field of dog behavior, who understand why dogs bite. Here is a description of the test: http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html
The Michael Vick pit bulls were rehabilitated and passed the test. Now some of the Vick dogs are happily working as therapy dogs for kids. Becoming a therapy dog requires stringent temperament testing and behavior training. If those abused dogs were subject to ignorant people like the people that run this site, then they would all be murdered. Now they are spreading happiness and cheer to the same species that tortured them. On the other hand, this site is spreading nothing but fear and hate.
The average pass rate for all breeds is 81.6%. Pit bulls come in at 86%, AmStaffs 83.9%, Staffordshires 89.6%, Golden Retrievers 84.6%, Mastiff 84.2%, GSDs 84.2%. All the dogs you are murdering have above average scores.
You're arguement is that we should kill dogs because they bite. That's like saying we should target minority groups because they are criminals. It's an extremely superficial and ignorant argument. Both dogs and low income minority kids are products of their environment. If they are properly educated and cared for, there is a very high likelihood they will be productive members of society.

BTW seems like dogsbite.com is written by someone who has a neocortex.

(the neocortex comment is in reference to the sinister KAREN DELISE)

23 minutes later, before i can respond to her first email, adrien writes again:

To answer your question about the validity of the test, here is a complete analysis of temperament testing. You can't say you thoroughly did your research if you didn't read this. It's on Science Direct database if you can't open the link:
Here's a layman's version of temperament testing: http://pages.videojug.com/pages/942-Dog-Temperament-Tests

(please note, i did not ask about the validity of the test and she sends me a link to depaul university that conveniently only faculty and students can access.)

another 23 minutes pass and she responds a third time before i can reply to the first email:

"anyone one who has a minimal understanding of critical statistical analysis should be able to see that the ATTS "breed statistics" temperament data19 is essentially valueless." That's from your own site.
simple question: why are you referring to dog bite statistics, which have multiple variables yet when someone refers to a temperament test that has been developed by experienced, qualified, scientists, you debunk the stats?
fyi scientists are well schooled in statistics. Your site continues to be void, because you have yet to address any one of my three original points.


FINALLY, i get a word in:

well, that's a lot of words and yet none of them answer my honest and sincere question. i am genuinely interested in this test.

i repeat, where did you read this? please share the link.

"It was designed by PhDs in animal behavior and tests the aggression levels."


It's people like you who are responsible for the ignorance, hate, and discrimination in this world. You discriminate against dogs for being dangerous without knowing anything about sociology or animal behavior. Next time I get an email from you people, I want an academic degree in animal behavior or veterinary behavior attached to it or the argument is over.

You never addressed my three original points. I'm not taking any emails by you though, I'm only taking emails by someone who can read "alot of words" and by someone with a legitimate animal behavior degree attached to their name. I bascially spoon fed you the information that addresses the legitimacy of temperament testing. Go and read it.

By your logic, all cars are dangerous, all black people are dangerous, all politicians are dangerous... the list goes on and on. Sounds ignorant doesn't it? Educated people don't believe in superficial logic like yours.


okay, then. it's official. you made it up. it happens everyday. i completely understand. sadly, i am quite familiar with this tactic.


i think you will find it interesting. i do my research and i credit the great neocortex every chance i get.

i poked around the internet a little bit to try and get a better handle on poor ADRIEN. her review of jim gorant's "spoon fed" feel good fairy tale about the vick dogs provides further evidence of her gullibility and lack of critical thinking skills.
in adrien's simple mind, dog fighting exists only because government bureaucrats are lazy. IF they get off their asses and treat dog fighters like "the murderers and rapists" that they are, then dog fighting will cease to exist in the same way murder and rape have ceased to exist. her logic begs the question, have they lowered the premed admission standards?

ADRIEN plays lovely piano. Rachmaninoff is not really my cup of tea, i am partial to Bach. suggestion: stick with the piano.

oh and by the way ADRIEN, i have a degree in sociology ;)

here it is, after months of broken promises. The Truth About Pit Bulls, The Pit Bull Hoax: The ATTS.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

Incredible Research...The only thing I didn't see hammered out is that it costs a paltry $25 to become an ATTS Tester....Once one becomes a Chief Tester after testing 30 dogs, the Tester can spawn new testers!

In the military, this is called "Pencil Whipping".

Doesn't matter, more Pits fail real world temperment tests and get shot by Police than will ever "pass" this fraudulent test.

Anonymous said...

Another great post.

Happy New Year!

april 29 said...

This 23 year old shelter volunteer exhibits the thought processes of a child. As a shelter volunteer she feels free to "educate" the public but refuses to accept information from anyone who does not have a degree in Animal Behavior. Please pay attention here young lady... Karen Delise does not have any animal behavior academic qualifications, same with Ledy VanKavage (she is a lawyer) Jane Berkey is a rich breed advocate, BADRAP is run by artists. I have done the ATTS test and found little value in it.

cravendesires said...

pencil whipping. to tell you the truth i hadn't gone into the testers very deep, not for lack of trying. it is difficult to get any info about this secret society and how it operates. i always assumed that i would have to wait for someone to break ranks and blow the whistle.

if you can direct to me anything related to the ATTS, please do. my mind is is always to new information.

crvndesires@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

Great post! What the pit bull apologists don't want you to know is that a dog could be a complete danger as a household pet and pass this test with flying colors.

A dog could want to kill EVERY dog it sees and still pass the TT.

A dog could be a dangerous resource guarder, and attack anyone who came near his food or toys, and pass the TT.


A dog could be extremly reactive and aggressive when having his ears, feet, or other body parts touched, and still pass the TT.

In short, a dog that would be considered too dangerous to adopt out as a family pet by any legitimate rescue organization could easily pass the TT with flying colors.

Anonymous said...

What I find interesting is the attempt to appear logical and then adding emotional wording such as "murdering". Also I disagree with the Mastiff stats. As the owner of two Mastiff breeds(English Mastiff and Dogue de Bordeaux) they all differ. But 9 out of 10 attacks by a Mastiff tend to be the Bullmastiff. I'm sure the cross of the Mastiff with a bully breed had nothing to do with it(or so the pit and bully breed advocates like to think).

Anonymous said...

I've found this machine gun e-mail/posting style to be very common in pit nutters as well as the inability to answer very simple, straightforward questions. They seem to think if they throw out enough baseless accusations, you'll forget what you asked them. The worm can squirm, but there's always the hook.

It seems to go along with the lack of critical thinking skills, emotion based judgment, and inability to delay gratification. They seem to think if they are spewing the most words, regardless of what the words convey, they "win". They reason more like children than adults, regardless of age.

Excellent post on the ATTS. It's just one more nail in the coffin of pit bull apologia.

Dude said...

Adrien claims, “If you cannot legitimately argue against all three of these points: single variable vs. multiple sociological variables…” blah, blah, blah.

What if the most significant variable is breed? How many irrelevant “sociological variables” would it take to nullify that one?

As a practical matter, how should the law consider “variables” to address issues of public safety? If Ned’s truck crosses the center divider and kills a family of four, does it matter the road was covered with ice and visibility was diminished by a snow storm, or that Ned was abused as a child, or that Ned has medical issues, or that Ned is economically disadvantaged, or wealthy? Or, does it matter that Ned’s blood alcohol was twice the legal limit?

Get it, Adrien? “Multiple variables” are multiple red herrings. Remove the drunk or remove the breed and the risk is significantly reduced. It won't stop a pretentious imbecile from claiming otherwise, but it ain't rocket science.

HonestyHelps said...

Craven, it was worth the wait. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Adrien Phipps

HONEY, YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

You make women look bad. You make women look STUPID and GULLIBLE.

The ATTS is run by surprise! PIT BULL BREEDERS AND DOG FIGHTERS who put together a front group called ATTS EXACTLY for this reason, TO SCAM STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU and to try to dupe you into supporting their activities of breeding, selling, and fighting pit bulls. Abusing dogs. Abusing other people's pets. Killing kids. Fighting dogs. Abusing and killing pit bulls. People who have a FINANCIAL interest in pit bulls. They don't "love dogs," they just use and abuse these dogs to make money!

These breeders and fighters don't want to get regulated, so they cooked up a SCAM that is the "American Temperament Testing Society" to PRETEND to be expert but to hand out nothing but LIES and PROPAGANDA.

They use emotional manipulation and fake tests and statistics to use on foolish women like you, Adrien, who have the minds and intellectual capacity of little girls.

People like you are helping these pit bull breeders breed and torture more dogs.

You are supposed to be educated, Adrien. But all you are doing is getting sucked in by animal tiorturers.

Youi know who is on the ATTS? Well, one of them belongs to a nasty little group called NAIA, which supports and lobbies for puppy mills, dog fighting, and all kinds of other animal torture. One of their directors is a "tester" with ATTS.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Animal_Interest_Alliance

Have you ever heard of Rick Berman? NAIA is affiliated with him.

These are animal TORTURERS, Adrien. People who lobby for breeders and dog fighters to be able to overbreed and torture pit bulls without laws.

They USE foolish girls like you to spread their propaganda, their LIES, to oppose regulation that could stop this torture.

Anonymous said...

"I grew up in inner city Chicago,"

I believe that Adrien Phipps is perhaps a scammer as well, because this girl reads "mindless suburban dimwit" all the way.

Perhaps she has lied on her college application to help her get in by claiming that she is from a "poor" background?

This reminds me of the white suburban girl who got caught with those scam "memoirs" about growing up in South LA and being in gangs. One big fraud.

It sounds like Adrien is duping some people herself.

. said...

This was one hell of a read, Craven. On both blogs. I'll be sure to link this in my most popular blogs.

Anonymous said...

The NAIA member who came out in public as an ATTS tester is HOLLY STUMP, pit bull breeder in Ipswich Massachusetts and NAIA board of director member.

(Ipswich Ma is next door to Newburyport Mass. Remember who is still breeding fighting dogs there? and bird fighting, according to customers posting online? Whose family let their fighting dog kill a child back when? Who ALSO lobbies against bsl?)

(Other pit bull BREEDERS have also outed themselves as "testing" for this scam ATTS. It is a pit bull breeder front group posing falsely as "behaviorists.")

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Animal_Interest_Alliance

NAIA has been cited by DOG FIGHTERS as representing their financial interests. NAIA is connected to animal torture lobbyist Rick Berman

http://www.bermanexposed.org/
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick_Berman

(Berman too is a lobbyist for dog fighters, dog breeders, puppy mills, opposing regulation because of the FINANCIAL effect on these scumbags)

Holly Stump, pit bull breeder, does things like manipulate her idiot local state Rep. Brad Hill, to try to pass fake "dangerous dog" laws that ALLOW vicious dogs multiple attacks, allow them to kill other dogs, wipe their records clean after a few months, allow vicious dogs to be returned to owners to attack and even kill, and slip some additional money into the wallets of people like Holly Stump by allowing vague "trainers" to "train" vicious dogs and falsely claim they are ok.

. said...

Hey Craven,


Remember Denise Justin? The only sane pit bull owner to comment on your site other than StopMakingExcuses?

She has a rather nice blog,

http://www.opposingviews.com/users/denise-a-justin/articles_list

Anonymous said...

I know Adrien Phipps. She is attending DePaul University.

She has no business whatsoever even thinking about being in medical school in future, and the school should be aware of her extracurricular activities.

It is bad enough that she lacks the intelligence to understand that she is colluding with criminal pit bull breeders, but she is advocating FOR the killing, disabling, and injury of children (the biggest victims of pit bulls)

Unacceptable, Adrien.

Does Mark and family know what you are up to? Do they know that the KKK is one of the big pit bull lobbyists?

These pit bull advocacy group have links to groups like the KKK, and to tobacco lobbyist Berman.

Unacceptable, Adrien.

Anonymous said...

The sick thing about this is that her uncle is an MD, Edwin Blumberg, is a doctor is S Plainfield NJ

I would really like to know if the good doctor is aware of the pit bull breeders his niece is spending her time propagandizing for, the same breeders that advocate for killing and maiming kids with their fighting dogs, the same breeders that hire lobbyists like tobacco lobbyist Rick Berman.

I would also love to know what part he is playing in her med school application, because the things she writes make no sense and don't follow normal psychological patterns of clear thinking and clear mental health. ILLOGICAL!

Her bizarre threats ("do want I want or this is over")?????? are a warning sign of problems.

Also, her grammar and use of the language is appalling, and she uses incorrect words (imagine making that mistake on a prescription or diagnosis) and she is spreading rumors and falsified statistics that are not true and that in fact endanger people's lives ("pit bulls score higher than golden retr'rs").

(ATTS is not "scientists," the test are not "scientific," it's a pit bull breeder scam group)

And comparing dogs to people, like African Americans, and falsely claiming "racism" for pit bulls is racism itself!

Unfortunately there is a problem in this field with some medical professionals getting the "bar lowered" for relatives into med school, which should be accepting only the most clear-headed and intelligent entrants.

I hope very much that this isn't happening, because there is a real problem here that should concern others.

I am outraged by this girl's behavior. She has no business being anywhere near any kind of medical program. This is not a safe situation.

Anonymous said...

Adrien has also been involved in fighting, bickering, being a know-it-all, and maligning the faculty at her own university.

Apparently, Adrien Phipps knows better than everyone else in the world, and Adrien is the ultimate judge of all. Despite the fact that Adrien Phipps can't even figure out when she is getting scammed by dog breeders and dog fighters.

Red Alert Warning!

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ETiMchBAJQwJ:da-dk.facebook.com/group.php%3Fv%3Dwall%26gid%3D2236911109+%22adrien+phipps%22+depaul&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Adrien Phipps. The piano faculty at this school has become very unstable over the past few years, starting when Mary Sauer was unreasonably let go. Julia said no Eteri-bashing, but it's hard for me to avoid and I'm sure others feel the same way. We all know that she disagreed with Mary, as she did with Aglika. We also know that th...ough she has been here only for a few years, she has alot of influence. Both Aglika and Mary are highly qualified artists and instructors, with many loyal students. When a school fires exceptional faculty like this, it is likely the result of bad internal politics and no one in their right mind will go to a school with that sort of reputation.
Vis mere
10. februar 2007"

Anonymous said...

Adrien, how is this "inner city Chicago"


http://chicago.blockshopper.com/property/09092010530000/477_ne_river/

Anonymous said...

The point about "Pencil Whipping" is that a Breed Club can grow their own Testers and pump dogs through to get the numbers up.

Far easier to do this, than to police thier own breeders!


Disallowing BSL and leaving it to the breed community to regulate themsleves has been a collossal failure.

Anonymous said...

"Adrien L. Phipps says:
humans made pit bulls. It's our responsibility to make sure that the lives we created are respected."

Apparently, the lives of the human and animal victims are not to be respected because pit bull breeders should be able to do what they want and make as much money as they want.

Anonymous said...

Is Jane Saul Berkey buying time on NPR? Because apparently they were promoting Gorant's book and helping Ledy VanKavage and Best Friends make money with Gorant propaganda about the "progress" of the Vick dogs (all the while ignoring the truth about the Best Friends Vick Vicktory dogs in their hands, dying, killing other dogs, chewing through metal fences, biting people, still horrendously aggressive)

Jane unfortunately has some buddies at NPR helping her and her slaves make money with these dogs. (and they sure do want property seizure for these pit bull breeders- ha, ha, ha for the breeders. The pit bull rescue community will rob them blind in the end, and be their downfall in many ways, as they fight over the money)

They know they can trick the fools like Adrien into helping them cash in on these dogs.

Anonymous said...

This is getting worse and worse. DePaul, do you have counseling?

Adrien supports Stratton.

I'm feeling a Jere Alexander vibe. This is getting sick. Her mind is getting sucked into the thinking and rationale of the dog fighters. She has zero good judgment in this. She has no clue whatsoever that she is getting suckered. This seems to be a recent obsession.

Adrien seems to think dogs are people. Something very diseased is occurring.

Adrien thinks hog dog torture is ok, has no clue that weight pulling is cover for dog fighters trying to legitimize themselves, and schutzhund and pit bulls equals JOKE. No way.

My feeling is that lonely Adrien is getting used by some breeders (I'm feeling AKC, the "working dog" idiots that throw this dog sports crap around with regard to pit bulls) who are filling her head with trash. They know they have a pigeon.

This is very sick obsessive stuff. Keep in mind that Adrien owns a Lab. She doesn't seem to care that Labs are getting killed by pit bulls.

This is how a bunch of crooks tap into weak troubled minds.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XSX3TSZI2DcJ:www.amazon.com/review/ROLRLGLSMNEJ1+%22adrien+phipps%22+pit+bulls&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Same old Stratton, August 21, 2003
By A Customer
The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier (Hardcover)
Although I have respect for Stratton as a pit bulldog expert, I disagree with many of his claims and beliefs. He is too supportive of dog fighting. He encourages the use of the pit bull as a protection dog. He talks mostly about the macho uses of pit bulls - hog hunting, weight pull, bulking the dog up for big muscles and stamina, etc. He seems to love pit bulls in the same way a man loves to watch football or jack up a pickup. He sure knows a lot about them. But he has no real meaningful connection to them. It's very hard to read a book written by an author with such a detachment. I recommend this book only as a resource when doing research on pit bulls. But I don't think it is a quality book for people who are interested in getting a pet pit bull, or for people who want to learn about the many wonderful things that pit bulls can do"

Adrien posted this response Oct 29 2010!

"Adrien L. Phipps says:
there's nothing wrong with dog sports like weight pulling, hunting, and schutzhund. Pit bulls are like hyperactive children. If they're not challenged physically and mentally, there WILL be behavioral issues. If you do give your pit bull a sport or a job, they become gifted athletes and negative issues are avoided. Just look at successful athletes like Shawn Johnson, Michael Phelps, and Lance Armstrong. They all admit to being hyper problem children."

Anonymous said...

This is getting worse and worse. DePaul, do you have counseling?

Adrien supports Stratton.

I'm feeling a Jere Alexander vibe. This is getting sick. Her mind is getting sucked into the thinking and rationale of the dog fighters. She has zero good judgment in this. She has no clue whatsoever that she is getting suckered. This seems to be a recent obsession.

Adrien seems to think dogs are people. Something very diseased is occurring.

Adrien thinks hog dog torture is ok, has no clue that weight pulling is cover for dog fighters trying to legitimize themselves, and schutzhund and pit bulls equals JOKE. No way.

My feeling is that lonely Adrien is getting used by some breeders (I'm feeling AKC, the "working dog" idiots that throw this dog sports crap around with regard to pit bulls) who are filling her head with trash. They know they have a pigeon.

This is very sick obsessive stuff. Keep in mind that Adrien owns a Lab. She doesn't seem to care that Labs are getting killed by pit bulls.

This is how a bunch of crooks tap into weak troubled minds.

(next post)

Anonymous said...

Funny thing is that Adrien is ADMITTING that pit bulls are different and have issues. She ADMITS that pit bulls are screwed up!

Totally negates all her chatter about ATTS lies.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XSX3TSZI2DcJ:www.amazon.com/review/ROLRLGLSMNEJ1+%22adrien+phipps%22+pit+bulls&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Same old Stratton, August 21, 2003
By A Customer
The Truth About the American Pit Bull Terrier (Hardcover)
Although I have respect for Stratton as a pit bulldog expert, I disagree with many of his claims and beliefs. He is too supportive of dog fighting. He encourages the use of the pit bull as a protection dog. He talks mostly about the macho uses of pit bulls - hog hunting, weight pull, bulking the dog up for big muscles and stamina, etc. He seems to love pit bulls in the same way a man loves to watch football or jack up a pickup. He sure knows a lot about them. But he has no real meaningful connection to them. It's very hard to read a book written by an author with such a detachment. I recommend this book only as a resource when doing research on pit bulls. But I don't think it is a quality book for people who are interested in getting a pet pit bull, or for people who want to learn about the many wonderful things that pit bulls can do"

Adrien posted this response Oct 29 2010!

"Adrien L. Phipps says:
there's nothing wrong with dog sports like weight pulling, hunting, and schutzhund. Pit bulls are like hyperactive children. If they're not challenged physically and mentally, there WILL be behavioral issues. If you do give your pit bull a sport or a job, they become gifted athletes and negative issues are avoided. Just look at successful athletes like Shawn Johnson, Michael Phelps, and Lance Armstrong. They all admit to being hyper problem children."

Anonymous said...

Okay so Adrien owns a lab but its okay for her to talk about pit bulls. Where's her "owner experience"? Am I to believe she is the mother of a hyperactive child as well? Because where I'm standing, she's just talking about things she has no clue about. And no one believes her. How sad for Adrien.

One point I'd like to make about the scientific method that Adrien must use at school. When you do scientific experiments, you compare samples of the same size. You do not test 4 dogs of a breed and 500 dogs of another breed and say the results are comparable. You also don't test dogs trained for a test and expect the same results from dogs never trained for the test, or not trained at all. Does Adrien think that 82% of pit bulls (or any other breed) pulled off of the chains they have been living on for the last 3 years will pass the test? She is so desperate to believe the lies that she forgot all common sense.

Notice we see the same types of people with the same behaviors defend pit bulls over and over again.

cravendesires said...

regarding the comments about pit bull breeders, dog fighters and the ATTS, all of the names of all of the board of directors can be found in the forms the ATTS must file with the state of Missouri. i did my best to look into them. i found no obvious links to pit bulls. rottweilers, german shepherds, samoyeds is what i recall off the top of my head. one of them was a dog trainer. one BOD was from georgia with no obvious connection to any dog breed that i could find. some of the BOD members were also ATTS testers. i encourage everyone interested to look further into the BOD, as the information might be there, i just didn't see it.
you are correct about HOLLY STUMP. i found her listed as an ATTS tester awhile back, by accident, not while researching this project.
i hope you will share your findings here or email it to me. or start a blog!
crvndesires@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

>>>The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work. The test favors bold dogs, dogs that need to face danger head on without hesitation and fear. Courage was desired and rewarded, timidity was not. The ATTS favors dogs like pit bulls over dogs like collies.

I got my Sheltie a couple years ago via the local pound. I'd put my name on a wait list for a Sheltie or Collie type dog. When they called, I was told if I didn't take him, he would be put down b/c he'd totally failed the temperment testing. Why? His shyness. Being left at the shelter, he was terrified of everything and just wanted to put his head into your armpit and hide. I took him home that day and ever since, he's been a joy to us.

Anonymous said...

Our hound mix was also going to be put down for being too shy and therefore unadoptable. This shelter was full of pits. Its as if the shelter staff thought pits were normal and judged all dogs to their standard. They also wanted me to take a pit over the dog I wanted. neddless to say, I'm not an idiot.

Thought you might like to check out the latest entry on the BADRAP blog about what's in and out in 2011 - apparently we can't call them "bully breeds" anymore - and it gets far worse from there. But even they say the TT is worthless.

"OUT- Temperament test
IN - "BEVAL" (short for behavior evaluation)

We now know that you really can't see a dog's true temperament through any given 'test.' At best, we can get a snapshot of personality type by observing behaviors during assessments. On that note, the word 'temperament' has been dropped altogether in some circles and replaced with the more generous word, 'personality,' to reflect an animal's flexible nature, given his environment and handling."

DubV said...

Good post on the ATTS. You touched up the non-random sample and the grooming of specific pits, these things add up to totally invalidating the test because of what is termed "self selection bias". A statistician would not need to know anything else about this test, just the selection procedure, before throwing it out as a totally useless instrument for comparing dog breeds. Therefore, I see this aspect of the test, for me, to be the silver bullet. All one needs to know is that people with more aggressive dogs will be less likely to have their dog tested ESPECIALLY if they are concerned with how the public views their breed. Using the ATTS as the nutters do is like trying to determine if penis length varies by county in some state by putting out fliers asking men to come in to be measured. What you would find is that the smaller guys don't show up, the average is biased high and that all counties have nearly the same average (even if there really was a difference).

Anonymous said...

"The ATTS test was initially intended to test working dogs for jobs such as police work'

This may have been the plan for this ATTS scam as they tried to legitimize fighting breeds.

Unfortunately for them, pit bulls, due to how and why they are bred, try to attack John Q Public's poodle or baby when they are supposed to be "working."

The only JOB for a pit bull is in the fighting pit. That is the sole reason they are bred, and the standards they are bred to.

Anonymous said...

Temperament test. Behavioral test. Personality test.

Doesn't matter with pit bulls. They have failed the big test- being pets in a civilized society filled with children, elderly people, other dogs, cats, wildlife, etc.

They fail every day. The newspapers, hospitals, vet clinics, cemeteries, obituaries are proof enough of that.

The world does not revolve around pretending that fighting breeds are safe.

Pit bull after pit bull has "passed" this variety of tests designed by middle class blowhards, and THEN GONE ON TO MAUL.

Pit bulls cannot be compared to another breeds. Pit bulls are special.

THEY AREN'T PETS. PERIOD. END OF STORY. They are fighting dogs.

No "personality" test designed by some self-proclaimed "trainer" will ever be meaningful when it comes to pit bulls.

One thing it will do. GET THESE RESCUES AND SHELTERS SUED. When they warrantee a pit bull because it supposedly "passed" their test, they are putting a legal promise on that dog. When it goes on inevitably to attack, the warrantors will get sued. And all the LLCs in the world won't protect them, because they have a lengthy trail behind them of acknowledgement of these issues and defending them with lies.

Look out, BadRap, and all the rest of you. People are not taking this any more. You WILL be in court, and you also may well be hit with criminal charges as well.

You are selling a liability.

Anonymous said...

"all of the names of all of the board of directors can be found in the forms the ATTS must file with the state of Missouri."

This is cover. (However very helpful for lawsuits if they are going to front for these fighting breed breeders. They will take the fall.)

Again, they are trying to legitimize this scam org.

The state of Missouri doesn't care, because Missouri is corrupt as hell when it comes to dog fighting and the rest. Some Missouri legislators are even involved in dog fighting, puppy mills, etc. They have been protecting these crooks for years.

Over and over again, pit bull breeders reveal themselves as "testers." I have some of the names somewhere.

These people will do anything it takes to be able to keep breeding fighting dogs. This is the last gasps of the fighting racket trying to legitimize itself as federal regulation and state regulation has passed and imposed on their "hobby" read crimes.

This also is more than likely another attempt to cash in on this issue, with pit bull breeders trying to claim special "expert" status and getting paid for lying about these dogs.

Keep in mind that the pit bull industry has been a multi million dollar industry, tax free, for a long time. Maybe more, if you consider all the gambling that is the real reason it exists.

They even sell these dogs to dog fighters and rackets in other countries. American pit bull breeders have their fingers in dog fighting puies all over the world, because the pit bull is America's FIGHTING DOG.

Organized crime will fight to the end to try to stay alive. Trying to pretend pit bulls are pets is a last-gasp attempt.

They have to be able to keep breeding these dogs to keep dog fighting alive.

Scam organizations with fake tests and fake statistics are just one ploy to encourage the middle class imbeciles to promote pit bull breeding and dog fighting.

Anonymous said...

"word 'temperament' has been dropped altogether in some circles and replaced with the more generous word, 'personality,' to reflect an animal's flexible nature, given his environment and handling"

And what these artistes are saying is, we will sell you a pit bull that we know is aggressive. We'll say it's ok with us because it passed our fake "personality" test that just judged the dog at that particular moment in time. When it kills your kid, we'll say it's your fault because of your handling and environment.

By flexible nature, they mean that a dog can be fine one minute, and attack the next. That's not a normal dog's nature. It is a pit bull's normal nature.

They may try to escape the liability, but the lawyers are circling. And they know it! This language is trying to angle them out of the liability they know they will be eventually held responsible for. It won't work.

They are in serious Cover Your Ass mode.

When you say you have tested a dog and it passed, any kind of test, you are giving an IMPLIED WARRANTEE.

What's worse is that these idiots come right out in public and specifically state that pit bulls are nanny dogs and good with children!

The Ledy VanKavages of the world may be trying to weasel out of this, but they can't. When there is bloodshed, they will be held responsible.

Anyone who has been the victim of any kind of pit bull attack needs to sue. Yes, you can find a lawyer. Yes, you must do it.

And the funny thing is, the pit breeders know that these "rescue angel" scammers are also going to be their downfall. When they are handing out pits to a mommy with 3 kids in a neighborhood of pets and other kids, and the inevitable attack happens, the outrage grows and the lawsuits grow. It's going to be tracked back to the breeder too.

D and L said...

Straight from ATTS.org: “The test.. TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION EACH BREED’S INHERENT TENDENCIES.”

Pretty clear! ATTS doesn’t even claim to judge dogs by one standard, but according to a standard for that breed.

How do you compare pass fail rates according to breed if these breeds are held to different standards? This would be like comparing pass/fail results of 2nd graders tested on addition with pass/fail rates of high school students tested on trigonometry. If a higher percentage of 2nd graders passed, would anyone presume the 2nd graders have better math skills? Even if you could excuse preparation, selective participation/non participation, absence of other meaningful scenarios, you could never get around the issue of different standards for different breeds.

On the up side… I give ATTS credit for recognizing that “inherent tendencies” are determined by breed – a statement no pit bull advocate would appreciate.

One humorous consistency I find is how often those who cite ATTS will reflexively tell others to “get educated.” I’ve yet to see a single person that cites ATTS can describe anything beyond the pass/fail rates, and they typically have those wrong. Or, like Adrian Phipps, they’re perfectly willing to lie on the fly, then flee when confronted with facts. “I’m not talking to you unless you have an advanced degree in animal behavior!” Translation: “I’m caught in a lie so I’m going to escape by false pretense.” (Pathetic!)

Excellent discussion of ATTS, craven.

Cheers and Happy New Year!

Anonymous said...

**regarding the "mindless suburban nitwit", that was my initial reaction to her. she struck me as a white middle class cheese eating wine drinking liberal classical piano playing marathon running premed princess who needs to go into the city once a week, roll up her sleeves and get her hands dirty among the lower classes to ease some of that white liberal guilt. i could only find proof of her living in the suburbs but that doesn't mean she didn't grow up in the "inner city". i have doubts about it too. hopefully one of the people here that knows her, can confirm it.**

Don't know her personally, but I believe you are correct on this one :)

Anonymous said...

How do we know these were really Pit Bulls passing ATTS without a DNA test?!?

april 29 said...

As I recall, when we did the ATTS, we had to provide AKC papers. This was back in the 80's. The dog was a Standard Poodle so there was not much doubt, but still had to provide proof.

Anonymous said...

http://www.sunjournal.com/city/story/964993

Judging from the behavior of the owners, I'd say chances are these dogs were shit bulls. They need to develop a temperament test for dog owners. If they fall under the shit owner profile, no dogs allowed.

Anonymous said...

Aprul 29...Apparently now you just need 30 bucks.

april 29 said...

Anon 12:22, I expect you are right. Your comment brought up another topic where money talked. Breed apologists frequently claim that attacking dogs should not be called "pit bulls" because they are not genuine, "full blooded American Pit Bull Terriers. Show me the proof that the dog was a real APBT." I'm not sure that many people are aware of how Single Registration for American Pit Bull Terriers worked. The Single Registration process that gave UKC registration papers to pit bulls was only closed in November of 2008. A pit bull owner would state that his dog was a pit bull, fill out a UKC form, produce a hand written pedigree, mail a check... and presto, the dog became a registered APBT, genuine and full blooded.

Joe said...

Wow, Pitbulls scored higher on the ATTS than Golden Retrievers - hmm, what does that mean?

Well, let's check the statistics on the 18 year dog attack study here

Hmm, Pit bulls: 1552 attacks, 166 deaths, 859 maimings... Golden Retreivers: 9 attacks, 2 deaths, 2 maimings.

Whatever the ATTS is measuring, it's clearly irrelevant as these real world facts make clear.

shar pei mix said...

Brillant research as always, Craven! Wonderful way to start off the New Year as well.

P. said...

Anyone noticed the lack of comments from the pit nutters? Maybe they are still in a state of shock at being outted on the ATTS. In other words, stick this in your pit's ass, your game is over.

Gill Bentry said...

Hey Craven,

Great work on the blog. Keep up the good work! I was doing some research on Pit bulls in my area and came up with this little tidbit:

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2010-12-18/story/pet-pit-bull-attacks-st-augustine-boy

Note how the comments are filled with the usual Pit Bullshit. "Hey, a chihuahua can bite, too!" Yeah, like a chihuahua is going to take someone's leg off at the knee. Idiots.

Anonymous said...

Gill,

It has been scientifically proven that pit nutters suck at life.

Anonymous said...

Well...at least the Pit Community made it 5 days into 2011 before the first DBRF...

http://www.sacramentoblog.org/sheriff-woman-with-dog-bites-alive-during-attack/

Who bred this disloyal-real world temperment test failing mauler?!?

Anonymous said...

That trashy yard says enough right there. But you know, if toxicology reports come back saying the woman had drugs or alcohol in her system, the pit nutters will just say the dog was trying to revive her to save her life. *eye roll*

Just like the dog that bit off the baby's testicles was trying to change his dirty diaper. These people live in a complete fantasy land.

Dude said...

"...the pit nutters will just say the dog was trying to revive her to save her life."

You were being generous. The nutters are way crazier than you give them credit for. I think this is a first, or maybe not, but it's the first time I've seen this one. (Brace yourself for crazy on steroids.)

"Njikoka [Profile]MemberJan. 5, 2011 5:11pm PST
This is so sad. The dog may not be at fault. Dogs are very in tune when there is a problem. He may have know he was ill and been trying desperately to aid her in the only way he knew how."

Whoomp, there it is! Add, 'Need For A Mercy Killing,' to the list of pit bull talents!

Dude said...

Ooops, should have said, 'Need For A Mercy Killing,' to the list of triggers, or 'Mercy Killing' to the list of talents.

DubV said...

Have I posted yet today how much I hate pit nutters?

"Njikoka [Profile]MemberJan. 5, 2011 5:11pm PST
This is so sad. The dog may not be at fault. Dogs are very in tune when there is a problem. He may have know he was ill and been trying desperately to aid her in the only way he knew how."

Wow. Ready things like this literally make me angry at the person for being so stupid. I used to be much more accepting of stupid when I was younger. I am still kind to stupid people who know they are dumb or leave others alone. The fact that so many people are aggressively stupid makes me feel like I am living in a mad house.

Pit nutters are exactly like the crazy MFers you see snuggling up to big cats or bears with which they share their living space.

DubV said...

*reading

Anonymous said...

I am so thankful that service dogs don't try to help in that manner. Real dogs don't rip people up when trying to help, they may lick, nuzzle, whine, or maybe even lay a paw on them in concern, but they will never sink their teeth into the person.

DubV said...

anon 7:35,

Yep, pit nutter don't realize that the selective breeding of pits went in the opposite of what much of dog domestication had been doing for 1,000s of years. That is, making dogs wonderful human companions. Heck, I think they overshot and went past the wild state and made them more dangerous than a wild gray wolf raised in a home. In fact, I'm quite sure of it given the very low number of human deaths caused by healthy adult wild wolves. In the wild, natural selection made wolves avoid fights with anything that is not either food or something that is a real threat.

Anonymous said...

In California, there have been 6 deaths cause by mountain lions since records were kept in 1890. Two of them were caused by complications from rabies...

The woman killed a couple days ago is the 7th California DBRF perpetrated by a Pit Bull in the past 358 days!


The domestication of this breed is vastly overstated.

Dude said...

"...aggressively stupid..."

I love that, and so apropos in the context of pit nutters!

Anonymous said...

craven, what's with trying to protect the tax cheat breeders?

They don't have business licenses, they don't have tax id numbers with the state, all on records, they are tax cheats.

If they have unaltered dogs and litters of puppies THEY ARE BREEDERS.

Are dog fighters and tax cheat breeders getting protected?

WTF?

cravendesires said...

me protecting tax cheating breeders? that's preposterous. say what you want about people but be prepared to back up what you say.

i just left this comment in another blog post regarding this subject:

i received two complaints from people about anonymously posted negative comments on blogs that were a couple of months old. the negative comments were made without anything to substantiate them. whether the comments were true or false, i have no idea, there were no links submitted with the comment to back up the statements. reasonable people conclude their concerns of defamation are legitimate.

there is no slippery slope here. you either back up what you say or don't say it. and while you are at it, save your proof in case it disappears from the internet.

a few months ago, i opened up comments to free me up to do more research. it is too time consuming to read every single word of every single comment. i have to trust that people will behave and not incriminate me or themselves.

Anonymous said...

>>>>>>>The ATTS is run by surprise! PIT BULL BREEDERS AND DOG FIGHTERS who put together a front group called ATTS

I suppose you have the documentation that goes with this statement. I would be interested in the link. Please provide.

cravendesires said...

if you read my comments above, you know that i do not possess that documentation and i correct the person who claims that the ATTS is run by pit bull breeders and dog fighters. nor do i subscribe to the idea that all pit bull owners are breeders or fighters. these comments are a major source of frustration for me.

Anonymous said...

Craven, I did read your response and this was my mistake. I should have directed my post to Anon Jan 2 12:44. They were the ones that made that statement not you.

cravendesires said...

i would be surprised if that documentation exists. but i encourage people to look for it.

Anonymous said...

APRIL 29

The new UKC Registration process is much better than the original Registry Requirement when it was established in 1898.

When it was established by Dogfighter Chancey Bennett, A dog had to have 3 documented wins to earn papers. UKC made alot of Blood Money off these animals!