all this talk about vick dogs and dna tests has inspired another round of find the bull.
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80 comments:
um... is this a trick question?
bingo
FAMOUS {IT NUTTERS IN HISTORY:
Oft defeated Jesse James has another "Cisco" incident...tearing another's dog a new one...
http://www.tmz.com/2011/06/07/jesse-james-pitbull-attacks-west-coast-choppers-corgi-buckley-photo-neck-wound-animal-control-austin-texas/
Disclaimer** I am not making this up!
They are such fugly dogs. Faces only a nutter could love.
"We're told the person walking Buckley freaked out "
a fucking pit nutter wrote this story for TMZ.
They all look like fighting dogs or mixes to me.
I wish people would stop taking such dogs to pet stores. Last time I took my dog to PetsMart we were stared down by a black fighting breed dog. It just tensed up and gave this creepy stare at mine and other dogs in the store and the owner had to hold it back with both hands. I picked my dog up and took him to the car. I likely offended the pit owner but I don't care.
Again, at another store a while ago, we encountered one of those blue "American bullies" whose owner was allowing to bark and growl at the puppies behind glass in the store. Again, when it saw my dog it started with that creepy stare that often preceeds an attack.
I can't really take my dogs to stores or dog parks any more because these pit bull nut cases have convinced other people that fighting dogs are like any other. They aren't - my dogs would be killed if a pit bull did what it was bred to do. More and more of these damn fighting breed dogs are showing up in my neighbourhood and it's getting ridiculous. Fighting dogs are not family pets!
Looking at those dogs again, a lot look like game-bred fighting dogs to me, especially the tan one second from the bottom. The white one in the harness I think is a Colby dog. That particular lineage contains at least one dog that killed a child.
These aren't dogs that should be considered appropriate as family pets, that's for sure.
The answer is easy, Craven; if the dog is good then it's a pit bull. If the dog is bad then it is not a pit bull.
According to nutter logic anyways. :)
all of these dogs are considered to be american pit bull terriers. i found pedigrees for all of these dogs except one on the apbt ped website.
all of these dogs except the second from the bottom are champion pit fighters and the second from the bottom, lil bit was bred from champion pit fighters by jere alexander's husband. lil bit could have been fought but i have no proof or reason to believe that she has.
the point of this game is to illustrate that when you breed dogs for function as opposed to form, there is a lot more variation. i think it is interesting how many of these dogs possess mastiff and hound traits. this physical variation leaves room for nutters to howl, "that's not a pit bull!"
the concept of "breed" in the strictest sense has no meaning here and that is why i prefer to talk about "types" or gripping dogs.
The nutter article writer mentioned what the victim's owner was doing, but didn't volunteer what jesse james was doing. Which was probably pissing himself and dancing around like a little girl. It should have been jj who fruitlessly beat his pit bulls face, at the very least.
These are fucking scary, ugly, nasty dogs. gr ch Kingfish, the third from the bottom looks like a chupacabra dog to me.
If that damn stupid "i only get imports" bitch is messing with this ugly shit, no wonder she needs papers. You could probably hang papers on wolverine and she'd take it home and cuddle.
This is why sometimes when the media say pit mix there is no damn reason to think its a mix.
If you put "pit bull mix" into google image search, the collection of dogs you come up with is much more homogeneous than this group. There's no damn reason to think most of them are mixes either.
One thing common to a lot of these fighting dogs is that - when not being fought or conditioned - they have to be restrained by large collars and strong heavy chains. Look around a pit bull breeder sites and you'll see many dogs wearing heavy collars pulling on huge chains. Without the chains, they'd all kill each other.
There's a lot of variation but most of those dogs seem to have relatively large heads and jaws compared to their bodies. That makes sense for dogs bred to latch onto opponents and not let go.
A lot of those dogs just look nasty. The dog "Tornado" (based on the file name) looks quite menacing in that photo. Those aren't nanny dogs.
Oh yeah, I just saw wolverine pit girl's comment that if you mix an ambull or a mastiff with a pit it won't be a pit bull
BWAAHAAHAAHAA
She doesn't know fighters have been doing that since the very beginning.
Look at the last one gr ch Mayday, that dog weighed 75 pounds and has those mastiff jowls. Look at his descendent gr ch barracuda
- that dog is smaller, but his jowls are even more mastiff like. Yeah, once you mix mastiff in its not PURE. pfft.
that's funny. i thought the 4th from the top pit looked like el chupracabra :)
the "breed" debate is playing out in the pit nutter roundup too.
here is my comment from the other discussion:
i didn't like the look of of pit bulls when i was a pit nutter.
pit bull advocates take the phrase 'splitting hairs' to desperate and ridiculous almost psychotic extremes.
just look at the definition of BREED.
breed (webster's) a homogeneous grouping of animals within a species, developed by humans
breed (oxford) a line of descendants perpetuating particular hereditary qualities
breed (thefreedictionary.com) A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.
pit nutters are attempting to narrow down the definition of BREED to the point where there is no thing as a breed.
As far as fighting dogs in pet stores, the nutters focus so much on socialization that they often are willing to try to defeat dog-directed aggression in this way to our detriment.
I agree DubV.
Mary, unfortunately, each time you were chased from the store by that stare, oblivious pit nutter went home and wrote on their blog about their pit bull Terminator (3x)'s journey from poor abused fighting dog to rehabilitated wiggle butt - Took Terminator (3x) to the pet store today. He was a perfect gentleman as usual, barely looking at the other dogs, because he was so excited to pick out his next toy (they last all but 5 minutes, but I can't keep from pampering him). But that didn't stop some brainwashed lady from running out the the store for no reason! Poor Terminator!
Nutters now want to rehabilitate these things and put them in our neighborhoods.
Mary, you could let the owners of the stores know that instead of buying something, you had to run out when the fighting dogs threatened your dog. If several other people happen to also complain, they might do something.
It's funny, because as much as it annoys me, I think a lot of people who take their pit bull-type dogs places where there are other dogs sort of mean well since they want to socialize their dogs with other dogs. Actually, advice on the humane society website from my city even advises pit bull keepers to socialize their dog where other dogs are leashed!
The problem is that if said pit bull is tense around other dogs, taking it to a pet shop or dog park places other people's pets in danger. I have a Maltese - if a pit bull latches on to him, he will die. A lot of pit bull owners think that dog aggression in their dogs will be preceeded by a lot of warning signs. That is true for the vast majority of dogs, and most dog-dog altercations involve a lot of yakking and little else.
That isn't so with fighting dogs. They can become tense and then can launch into a sustained attack against another dog with no warning. A lot of the pit bull fanatic propaganda completely glosses over the dog's history and by doing so the pit bull fanatics are hurting other dogs (and children - as sometimes the pit bull's fighting behavior is directed onto children).
For example, this is from a humane society's website on pit bulls:
"Socialize your dog with other dogs at a level that is good for your dog. They all benefit from well-structured socialization. If your dog has matured beyond his dog friendly youngster days, being off leash and around strange dogs could be asking too much of him. Better to let him mingle with other dogs on leash so he can stay accustomed to their presence in safety. Obedience classes are a great place to give your mature dog important socialization experience."
Note this advice is all about the pit bull's safety, and screw the other dogs. In an altercation, it's very, very unlikely that a pit bull's safety will be in jeopardy. Given what these dogs were bred for, the other dog is the one that will likely be seriously injured or killed. I don't want a pit bull that is beyond its "dog friendly youngster days" anywhere near my dog. From what I've seen, few pit bull owners can hold back their dogs when it's determined to get at another dog.
"They can become tense and then can launch into a sustained attack against another dog with no warning."
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but If a dog becomes "tense", wouldn't that be considered a warning?
Stop trying to identify these animals...only a uneducated meth dealer or convicted sex offender is qualified to do so.
Pits-mart has a long history of incidents in it's stores. They they maul the victim on the settlement....just business!
Don't subsidize it!
Pit Owner,
I think they meant without traditional warning signs. Tensing up could be a "warning" for many different kinds of behavior. It isn't like the teeth baring, posturing, growling sort of warning that is hard to interpret any other way. Anyone who has seen a dog fight (via documentary or any other means) knows that these dogs do not fight like the majority of other animals. Other animals try to avoid fighting by intimidating each other. The dogs killing each other in the pit are remarkably quiet.
The difference between signs and signals:
"I think they meant without traditional warning signs. Tensing up could be a "warning" for many different kinds of behavior. "
Exactly. Tensing up is a physical reaction to stimuli that can be perceived if someone is paying attention to the dog rather than choosing another "I luv my pittie" key chain. It is not an overt warning signal meant to alert and communicate. And it may just be a prelude to an inevitable attack - meaning no matter what the other dog does, the attack will follow.
Normal dogs, before attacking a member of their social group, give specific overt warning signals to the other dog that are meant to say "back off to avoid a conflict." These signals are also easily perceived by people allowing both the dog to retreat and preferably the owner to correct their dog or remove it.
I have seen many pit/pit mix owners who either don't notice, ignore, or don't understand the meaning of the tensing and intense staring their dogs do.
It is yet another case of pit owners making the rest of us responsible for what their dogs do. We have to be alert to these often subtle and covert signs because they can't or won't pay attention to them.
i often see dogs tense up (stiffen) immediately upon meeting strange dogs but then relax. in normal dogs, it doesn't mean they are aggressive or getting ready to attack. i interpret it as they feel uncertain about the other dog, maybe a little frightened. but normal dogs have normal owners who are not experts in the language of fighting dogs. five years ago, i didn't know what the ugly reptilian stare was, i just knew that it was unusual and i didn't like it.
btw snack sized dog, great link. i got lost in it last night, grabbed every photo in the gallery which included the great ch pit fighter bisexual. a couple of years ago, i actively looked for her. those slavic dog fighters really worship the apbt and the craven scum who produce it. oh and it looks like the evil twins bert and fred ramirez of evolution kennels (machobuck) had a makeover. their new kennel name - blackrock's kennels. yep, we always count on the craven slavs to keep us in the know.
Quote:
"I have seen many pit/pit mix owners who either don't notice, ignore, or don't understand the meaning of the tensing and intense staring their dogs do."
Exactly! By tense up, I mean the cold stare ('ugly reptilian stare') that most pit owners won't see as a problem.
Heck, some pit bulls actually look pretty darn happy before launching an attack. Some will be wagging their tails while they're latched onto another dog or person. There's a reason pit bulls are almost exclusively used in organized dog fights - other breeds won't fight to death like that. It's a gruesome behavior that never should have been selected for.
Note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5uvK8TfOA
The dog is wagging his tail as he approaches the lady to attack. No barking, no nothing. He just attacks.
"I think they meant without traditional warning signs. Tensing up could be a "warning" for many different kinds of behavior."
Differences in communication and differences in action.
Here is a report of a St Bernard attacking a lab. It grabbed a hold and shook.
...last year. Rufus was attacked by a pit bull out there. The pit bull was dragging the owner on the ground. It got a chunk of Rufus, who had a puncture wound."
In the case of the St. Bernard attack, no puncture wounds were found on Rufus.
Interesting link Bagheera - Even though the St Bernard is known to have greater Jaw strength than the pit bull, the St did not puncture the neck while the pit bull did...
Re: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5uvK8TfOA The dog is wagging his tail as he approaches the lady to attack. No barking, no nothing. He just attacks."
Exemplary video of a shit bull and its pitiot. Two ugly fucking beasts in one package. I can't over emphasize how badly I wish that A/C officer was armed. Draw - double tap the pit - holster - take that pit owner to the ground with a hit so ugly it would make Oakland Raiders' fans go nuts.
As if the attack wasn't classic enough, the pit owner does the most classic thing of all.
When asked, "How could you let the dog out?
The beast screams emphatically, "I didn't, the door was open!"
Huh? Let's rewind: "Benjamin is coming out, so if you don't want to get bit you better get out of here."
Pit bulls lie about their intentions, and their owner lie about the dogs. It's a perfect pairing of human waste and canine garbage.
I think that Craven is missing a point here: Dog fighting is illegal. It is actually a felony in the state in which I reside. The bull breeds originated in the UK in the 18th Century when women could not vote, black people could not own property ect. Societal norms were different, however, American Pitbull Terriers are no longer LEGALLY breed for fighting purposes. You might argue well it's "in their blood." By that logic all sporting dogs live to hunt. This would mean my cocker spaniel, because it was breed to be a hunting dog, would flush game from the brush (what is was breed for) and is going to chase and kill and bring me squirrels? Not likely.
I will like there is some serious misdirected rage/miseducation happening here.
Now, granted, because APBT have an intimidating appearance and the greatest muscle mass per pound of any breed SOME of their owners are criminals, idiots, drug dealer ect, that want a "badass" looking dog. So essentially they get a dog for all of the wrong reasons- not because they give a fuck about the dog's care, or socializing it or making it a family dog. They have greed or some other bullshit reason for getting an inbred pitbull that some guy bred under his trailer while it's mom was chained under a tree for 8 years and become more aggressive, more angry and more nervous. Again, ignorance and greed is the issue. Notice that is is HUMAN greed and ignorance that is creating problems for everyone.
Why are you so ignorant and miseducated? Did your parents tell you these dogs were evil? Did you have a bad experience??
katherine, you are kind of late to the party. i addressed my journey from pit nutter to pit hater here
i don't deny that criminals, idiots, drug dealer etc are a major part of the problem. do you deny that well cared for, socialized pits who eat and sleep with indoors with their humans are never a problem?
"Societal norms were different, however, American Pitbull Terriers are no longer LEGALLY breed for fighting purposes. You might argue well it's "in their blood." By that logic all sporting dogs live to hunt."
are you actually saying that because pit bulls are not LEGALLY bred for fighting, they have lost their dog aggressiveness? i don't understand your point. heroin was legal 100 years ago, it was addictive when it was legal and it still is despite it's illegal status.
Katherine, what do you think happens to common gene sequences in an animal even if they are not selected for once they are established? They stick around unless they are selected against. Of course, there can be random, genetic drift (which tends to element rare genes, not the common) and the effect of hybridization. Still, genes being passed on and still present is like a coffee cup sat in your sink. If nothing is done to move that cup, it will stay there until the roof of the house falls in.
If this was not true in principle, then why are the later generations of people that migrated from let's say subsaharan africa to northern europe still darker in skin color? The main advantage of high melanin concentration is surely gone at high latitudes, why do their kids continue to have the same skin color as the parents?
Besides, people are still fighting pit bulls. So, your argument is wrong on that front regardless of your understanding of genetics.
There you go getting all "sciency" with a pitiot.
Even a badly bred, pet store cocker will still flush game if given the chance, btw.
Yes Katherine, some of us have had VERY bad experiences. We are the victims of unprovoked pit bull attacks. Mostly the pit owners stand and watch. They do not help us, they do not make any effort to control their dogs. They are terrified of their beloved wigglebutts when said wigglebutt prances up to some innocent human, or some innocent pet and proceeds to do exactly what their DNA directs them to do, kill.
We are not "ignorant" and we do not need the education you offer. The pit bull beat you to it.
I can't believe these nutters who know nothing about their breed. Dog fighting is HUGE, dearie. And yes, I know you're just being disingenuous. I once found Brent Toellner saying that dogfighting ended long ago in the comments section of some article once. Unbelievable
There have been 1,036 reported cases of dogfighting recorded on pet-abuse.com since 2008. 971 involve pit bulls. The others usually involve other animals used as bait for pitbulls.
And these are just the guys that got caught.
april29
We are not "ignorant" and we do not need the education you offer. The pit bull beat you to it.
Unbelievably accurate, apt, and biting comment.
I just saw this - this is a really good point and it happens all the time, and you're right, normal people used to normal dogs don't know how to interpret that.
"i often see dogs tense up (stiffen) immediately upon meeting strange dogs but then relax. in normal dogs, it doesn't mean they are aggressive or getting ready to attack."
I had to look up ch. bisexual - I did not know that dog, but I didn't find her on pit bull war site..
The slavic dog fighters are nasty and brazen and do worship the american dirtbags.
and the evil ramirez twins are quite brazen
I left the keyboard at the start of a reply, came back and find I’m scooped. But I was going to say… If you drop a cocker into a field, even from a line that’s been bred for bench shows for decades and generations, you will still see a dog with natural tendencies to quarter, flush and retrieve. While it’s unlikely to be a competitive performance, Katherine’s examples only illustrate how unqualified she is to open her pit nutter yap.
Kathtard yammers on, “Why are you so ignorant and miseducated? Did your parents tell you these dogs were evil? Did you have a bad experience??”
What do you mean by bad experience? The collective “we” covers the spectrum of bad experiences. What is your experience with pit bulls? Have you performed CPR on a child fatally wounded by a pit bull? Have you observed or attended somebody in ICU following a pit bull attack? Have you played “find the vocal cords” in a mangled throat while attempting a field intubation? Have you attended the funeral of a pit bull victim? Have you lost a pet to a pit bull? Had a pet brutalized? Become disabled or scarred? Discharged a weapon at a pit bull to defend yourself, a pet, or on behalf of others? What about family members or friends? If you can’t fit into any of these categories, you don’t know shit about pit bulls – never mind that you know even less about dogs in general.
You, Katherine, are a pretentious fuckwit.
"We are not "ignorant" and we do not need the education you offer. The pit bull beat you to it."
oh yeah, this will go down in history as one of the all time great quotes.
good job DubV and thanks mr science.
lee t, my pointer MIX, points all on his own without any instruction or encouragement from me.
ch bisexual
damn dude, you're on fire today. i just granted april29 the all time great comment award, you come out of the box swinging.
i guess it took me too long to find ch bisexual.
Katherine, dog fighting is still quite common because it's difficult for law enforcement officers to catch dog fighters in the act. Do you also think no one smokes pot because it's illegal?
I don't think pit bulls are evil. I don't think any animal is evil. When a pit bull launches a devestating attack on another dog, it's just an animal acting on instinct. That's one instinct that doesn't, however, need to be present in companion animals.
I agree that the pit bull problem is a people problem. People need to stop promoting and breeding these animals as pets or fighting animals and acting like the fact that they were bred for a violent purpose is no big deal.
AH HA! here's her ped
and what a grand ped it is!
her daddy was machobuck and his daddy was 357 and his daddy was mayday. now i know why people paid big money to see her fight.
I'm so glad I own a sweet-tempered, 25 lbs mutt. I really don't have to be on guard constantly and watching for signs he may try to kill something. Of course, I watch him, especially around kids and dogs, but I can safely let him fall asleep on the couch cuddled up to a house guest, and I know they will be alive in the morning. I'm sure some of the pit nutters think I'm a bad dog owner because my little guy isn't a canine good citizen yet.
I don't know why someone wants a dog they have to try to mimick the dog whisperer around.
You're right about not having to worry DubV - I love my 27 lb Chihuahua Rottie mix too. She's sweet around us and our other dogs but she doesn't like strange people or dogs getting too close to our space when we're out walking. I'll never have to worry about her attacking me, because it would be totally against her character - but even if she did, I could fight her off.
But I have other worries - if she were ever attacked by a fighting dog when I'm not around, she would be in trouble. I'm always worried about her well-being.
On the other hand, with a large powerful dog you don't need to worry so much about that, but you end up with a different set of worries.
There's no worry-free dog, except maybe a Sony Aibo.
Craven, I was thinking this Kathtard character was the one who came out swinging, but thanks :-)
Same here, DubV. I can't imagine owning a dog with special risks. Even if I couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge those risks, why would I want a dog with such a reputation? What would be the point of owning a breed you constantly had to defend? It's an odd game for odd characters.
Notice the pride within Kathtard's statement? "because APBT have an intimidating appearance and the greatest muscle mass per pound of any breed..."
Catch that? Even within her context, her added emphasis about muscle mass equates to a spontaneous utterance of what she appreciates in pit bulls. She admits their appearance is menacing, but then tries to deflect appreciation of these features to the desires of, "SOME criminals," etc.
Bull shit. Kathtard appreciates those features as much as any criminal. Nothing new here – same old nutter habit of talking out of both sides of the mouth. There’s even a chance this nutter is one of those idiots that chases mothers pushing baby strollers down the street. “That mother just needs to be educated!” Later, in a forum and during a presumption of relative pit nutter privacy, she’ll admit she thought the mother’s fear was funny and took pleasure in her reaction to the ugly dog.
@ Katherine
No Katherine, if anyone is missing the point it is you.
The argument here is not about dog fighting, it's about the community that supports "pit bulls" hypocritically stating that finding one is complicated and time consuming. These are the same people who will claim any dog that seems to be a pit mix to be a pit bull when it does something good. (stubby, nipper) But go around and claim a dog that is clearly a pit bull "isn't a pit bull" when it mauls someone. The most recent case was in New York when a pit mix was claimed to be a cane corso.
You should probably learn to stay on topic when you comment. Dog fighting was not the purpose of this article.
@ snack sized dog
Why should they be expected to know anything about their own breed? They are blind and gullible followers with no mind of their own. That's why you have people like Rob C. who believe any form of BSL means people coming into your house like the SS and stealing your precious pibble to be incinerated in a fire. And no, he literally believes animal control are similar to the SS and Hitler...
If people are paranoid and gullible enough to believe that, then it's easy to see why they would no relatively no history on their breed and why they continue to ignore the superabundant amount of available information stating the truth.
@ DubV
'If this was not true in principle, then why are the later generations of people that migrated from let's say subsaharan africa to northern europe still darker in skin color? The main advantage of high melanin concentration is surely gone at high latitudes, why do their kids continue to have the same skin color as the parents?"
Brilliant. :)
digger, mr science has been batting a 1000 lately.
@ Craven
I don't know who "mr. science" is sadly.
mr science is DubV.
Thanks for the kind words.
DubV, ok, there are no known nucliec acid sequences that translate into a protein for dog aggression so your argument for genetic drift removing genes from a population is null. But let's say all asshole breeders are breeding specifically for phenotypical behavioral traits- selecting a disposition or set of perceived tendencies, such as dog aggression, which the first breeders probably were. You are right, those traits may still be inherited at a dilute form. But this does not guarantee a mean, aggressive dog. You would know this not the case because people who fight their dogs breed the best females, but not all of the pups are aggressive enough to fight- these become the bait dogs that are too docile to fight- the ones that fail to be aggressive despite their genes.
Let me give you an example, let's say you grandfather and their grandfathers before them were all pedophiles. Does this guarantee that you will be a pedophile because you possess the genetic predisposition for a characteristic? Maybe. If you are chained, never socialized, never taken to the doctor's and beaten, yeah you will probably snap and end up being a psychopath.
However, the genes still become dilute over time. As with you African and melanin example- African Americans are typically phenotypically lighter in color than say, Kenyans where the sun's rays are most direct. This is because the need for this genetic piece of information-the melanin- is no longer actively being selected for in US African Americans the way it is on the continent of Africa.
So, the selection for a behavioral trait does allow for a possible predisposition but does not guarantee behavioral display of those traits. I know that you don't believe that ownership, training, proper nutrition and medical care make ANY impact on a dog's behavior because all pitbulls are natural born killers- but take a moment to really consider how illogical that statement is. I am not hear to get people up in arms, just to have you do some self-examination and get off of your moral soap box.
Now, I am not a self-proclaimed sociologist as Craven is nor am I fact checker- read: unemployed with too much time on their hands(I am a Biological Scientist) but I did take my time to read your precious story Craven. I was left wondering if you were the one that snapped when the dog made it through the fence? Because your morbid fascination with the body at the morgue, your obsession with maulings and bites and your love of guns, which support this idea, makes me wonder if you are the one who really wants to hurt animals/people? The behavior displayed on this blog( which I found accidentally) is not 1)balanced 2)normal. If you are so passionate about spay/neuter use all of this rage and pent up male aggression to do something positive for your community. Perhaps finding a human companion, if you can, and friends outside of Blogspot would also be beneficial to your well being? These are mere suggestions.
Respond to this in any way that you would like, I will never ever look at this hate mongering, self-obsessive thing again, but please consider using your passion for something helpful and uplifting.
Bye.
Well Katherine, my guess is that you work in an area where you have little contact with others. Your condescension would make you VERY difficult associate.
You jump to baseless conclusions and throw pretty much everybody under the bus.
You complain about folks on a "moral soapbox" without realizing that it is you on that box.
Take your own suggestions, please. But I forgot, you won't see this.
Katherine said..
"DubV, ok, there are no known nucliec acid sequences that translate into a protein for dog aggression so your argument for genetic drift removing genes from a population is null."
First, this is partially what is called argument from ignorance.
Your understanding of genetics is wrong in that you do not realize how cursory and incomplete it is. Complex things like behavior are not coded by a single gene.
It is obvious that genetics is at play if you admit that mean dogs tend to have mean puppies and vice versa. This is the reason behind breeders selecting for temperament. It is also obvious that genetics is at play when it comes to many complex behaviors selected for in canines.
What you are saying is similar to "no one has identified the exact genetic mechanism for labs liking water, therefore it must not be genetic". It should be obvious why this statement is as incorrect as what you asserted.
Katherine said...
"However, the genes still become dilute over time. As with you African and melanin example- African Americans are typically phenotypically lighter in color than say, Kenyans where the sun's rays are most direct. This is because the need for this genetic piece of information-the melanin- is no longer actively being selected for in US African Americans the way it is on the continent of Africa. "
Katherine, the primary reason that African Americans are lighter in skin color than Kenyans is because of the infusion of non-African genes by the surrounding majority population. This, sadly, often happened during the times of slavery due to rape by white slave owners.
Your understanding of what you are writing about is very low.
" But let's say all asshole breeders are breeding specifically for phenotypical behavioral traits- selecting a disposition or set of perceived tendencies, such as dog aggression, which the first breeders probably were. You are right, those traits may still be inherited at a dilute form. But this does not guarantee a mean, aggressive dog. You would know this not the case because people who fight their dogs breed the best females, but not all of the pups are aggressive enough to fight- these become the bait dogs that are too docile to fight- the ones that fail to be aggressive despite their genes."
You provide no mechanism for this dilution you speak of. Why aren't all traits in humans becoming dilute over time so that eventually we are just watered down versions of early humans? You have no idea what you are talking about.
Of course, there is a random component. However, unless a trait is selected against it will tend to stay in the population.
Katherine said...
"Let me give you an example, let's say you grandfather and their grandfathers before them were all pedophiles. "
First, go fuck yourself for this example.
Second, your entire screed following is that something having a higher probability does not guarantee that it will occur. Well, no shit sherlock.
You are misunderstanding and misframing this. The argument is that breeds inherently differ in their probability of being dangerous. This is in no way inconsistent with nurture having an influence or inconsistent with the existence of friendly pits and aggressive labs.
You really need to go take a standardized test of some sort and ponder the results, Katherine.
Katherine said...
" I know that you don't believe that ownership, training, proper nutrition and medical care make ANY impact on a dog's behavior because all pitbulls are natural born killers- but take a moment to really consider how illogical that statement is."
Katherine, no one here said anything remotely like this, except perhaps in jest.
It is obvious that both nature and nurture have an influence. You are mischaracterizing your opposition to attempt a cheap "win".
Katherine, after you figure out how to use the correct homonyms you might wish to take a look at this.
Being a "Biological Scientist" and all ;)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374754/
Katherine said...
"(I am a Biological Scientist)"
This is a shit appeal to authority, and what you said before about craven is an ad hominen.
I am nearly certain you aren't a scientist according to any useful definition, you are a technician somewhere. A scientist conducts original research of their own design and then publishes in peer-reviewed journals.
i love it when the nutters deliver ad hominen attacks against me, it is not only a source of entertainment for me but it continues to support the image of pit bull owners that we all have come to know. they never fail to disappoint.
"If you are chained, never socialized, never taken to the doctor's and beaten, yeah you will probably snap and end up being a psychopath."
normal people, ie non psychopaths, don't just snap and become psychopathic. psychopathy is biological, although environment CAN play part in how it is expressed.
"I know that you don't believe that ownership, training, proper nutrition and medical care make ANY impact on a dog's behavior because all pitbulls are natural born killers- but take a moment to really consider how illogical that statement is."
i absolutely believe this, in fact i recently stated that the pit bull in new jersey named patrick should be euthanized because of his upbringing and more importantly his extreme state of malnutrition.
i doubt that katherine is even a biological technician.
i think we need to defer to dude on this, katherine is a pretentious fuckwit.
Plus, I don't think that anyone is arguing that every single pit bull out there is going to kill another dog or person. Just that this particular type of dog does so with a much, much higher frequency than other breeds or types. It's pit bull terriers that are by far the most likely of dog types to kill people, disfigure them, or leave them missing a limb(s). That's because they were bred specifically to fight and maul.
People don't find it that hard to believe that ratting breeds, like Jack Russell Terriers, would be a bad idea to keep around small pets like Guinea pigs. Why do pit bull nuts have trouble accepting that a dog type selectively bred to attack and maul other dogs is most likely to (gasp!) attack and maul? It's really not a media conspiracy.
Right Mary, no one is saying that every pit bull will attack. Rather than absolute cause and effect, we should be thinking in terms of correlations. Like cigarettes and lung cancer, not everyone who smokes will succumb to lung cancer. And the legislators need to start passing laws to protect us against second hand maulings like they have done with second hand smoke.
@ Katherine
"If you are chained, never socialized, never taken to the doctor's and beaten, yeah you will probably snap and end up being a psychopath."
The problem is that not all pit bulls who attack were in that condition, so that argument is virtually moot.
And I doubt you're a bio tech of any sort because even children can understand the basics of genetics. Even the ones that cause different mental states.
@ Katherine
I'm not a "bio tech" like you are so some of this jargon I will not understand admittedly. However, even the most basic of your arguments are flawed.
"let's say all asshole breeders are breeding specifically for phenotypical behavioral traits- selecting a disposition or set of perceived tendencies, such as dog aggression, which the first breeders probably were. You are right, those traits may still be inherited at a dilute form. But this does not guarantee a mean, aggressive dog."
Well duh, there's genetic flow and no one is denying that. What we're talking about here is probability. And what is known is that the probability of mauling and killing another animal or person is highest in pit type dogs. Some pit nutters may be too ignorant to comprehend this basic rule but most of us surely aren't.
"Let me give you an example, let's say you grandfather and their grandfathers before them were all pedophiles. Does this guarantee that you will be a pedophile because you possess the genetic predisposition for a characteristic?"
What does pedophilia have to do with murder? If you want an anthropomorphized argument on murder then go here and here. For the rest of this argument, back up to point one that we agreed upon.
"However, the genes still become dilute over time. As with you African and melanin example- African Americans are typically phenotypically lighter in color than say, Kenyans where the sun's rays are most direct. This is because the need for this genetic piece of information-the melanin- is no longer actively being selected for in US African Americans the way it is on the continent of Africa."
Excuse me if I misunderstood this paragraph; but you do know that a large majority of people of color have outcrossed with other races causing that don't you? Removing Africans from places like Africa does not automatically dilute their skin...
And this negates your very point on pit bulls and breeds of dogs. The purpose of breeds is so that no matter where they come from or live; their genes are still active and selected for. Dogs don't fuck like people, excuse the expression. Their mating is controlled so the genes are controlled and therefore the probability of those genes being diluted or not are controlled. Many people who breed pit bulls still breed them for gameness. So for you to somewhat assert that a majority are breeding for diluted aggression is a farce.
After reading my response to you over again, take back what i said. Your entire argument is flawed and you're an idiot.
@ DubV
I would love to see Katherine's credentials. From her commentary alone; I doubt that her studies and papers are high up on the ladder of knowledge. :) Let alone a huge contribution to scientific progress. Hell, let alone a minuscule one.
@ DubV
In response to your comment at 5:09PM, she won't get it. if she thought that her long, poorly spell checked and poorly spaced argument was a good foundation for her debate (along with ad hominems) then she wont get anything you've said. you're flying so fast above her head you're going at the speed of light while she's still trying to figure out how to make a wheel work.
my guess is katherine is either a dog groomer or a vet tech.
somewhere in this blog, lycanprincess accused me of being a serial killer and a pedophile. then she went out and started her own blog and she warned people to keep their dogs and kids safe from me because i am a sociopath.
i'm hoping that katherine one ups lycanprincess and starts a blog and develops a theory about me practicing necrophilia. nothing sells like kinky sex. maybe i will get more blog hits.
Emotionally disturbed people with dangerous dogs.
WHAT a combination.
Are there any normal people that own these beasts?
@ Craven
I've been trying to find that quote by Lycanprincess here and there when I happen to think about it. I really do wonder how she concluded you were a pedophile... Then again, this is the same child who believed the monster from Predator was appealing in a sexual manner if I'm not incorrect.
i will try to find it later, i saved all of her comments that came through email for moderation.
While we're on the topic of pit nutters, I made a new blog. It's to focus on the common man type nutters while Craven focuses on the more well known ones.
Not all pit owners are like this I know, but the majority of them seem to be.
great idea digger. create a little graphic and i will link it back to you from the pit nutter blog.
i have a few oldie but goodies. i will send them to you tonight.
@Snack sized dog Dough and cravendesires
Well the theories me my three best friends and my teacher were right; this site caters to those who display sociopathic behavior. Trying to kill a dog with chicken wire because of it’s breed is not only criminal but it is also sick. I should have known earlier what kind of people I was dealing with. You do know that Jeffery Dahmer started out the same way? He would torture and kill animals but then he decided that killing humans was more of a thrill so he began to kill humans. My teacher’s husband works for the BAU and she told me he deals with things like you everyday. People who like to kill animals just because of what they look like. It wouldn’t surprise me if all three of you are really serial killers, you certainly fit several profiles according to my teacher. She told me that most animal abusers are also sexual predators that like t prey on children and women just for the feeling of power and even their ego. Soon just killing animals won’t give them that thrill so they move to humans. You all talk about Pit Bull attacks on the news but when all three of you are on the news what is the headline going to be? Snack sized dog your implies the hidden use of small in the name meaning you would probably be a pedophile who likes to rape and molest small children. Dough I’m not sure with you but you might be the type of rapist who rapes women and young girls that make you angry. Last but not least cravendesires. I’m not sure about you but you might find a place somewhere between the sexual sadist/pedophile category. But from what I have read and watched all of you fall into the categories listed along with several more. That’s really scary if you ask me.
i am not sure who Dough is?
I think I get it...The problem is not the dogfighters and criminals who have been selecting Pits for bloodsport for almost two centuries...It is this Blog!
i just found this. i do not believe for a second that vick's dogs are pit bulls. jane is the only one that behaved remotely like a pit bull. just my opinion. usually, i cannot find the pit bull in the photos but since you posted most of my dog's family i can in these photos
blog is another one of those words i hate but anyway vintage. the problem was never the dog fighters and i agree with almost everything in the blog. the problem is the dumb@sse wanna bee gangstas who are breeding and selling crappy pit bull looking dogs. they are a dime a dozen and running wild. the kind of idiot who buys a blue dog off craig's list is the same idiot who will breed that dog and yet another will buy the pups. it is just a disgrace. if the dogs were still with the real dogmen you would have nothing to write about. you all would have different internet entertainment and so would i:(
no friday night date for you either huh?
i agree that the wanna be gangstas are a problem but i think the naive badrap/best friends nutters pose a greater threat with the "it's all you raise 'em" BS. as for the dogmen not being a problem, i'll dig up a link for you. check back here a little later.
pete sparks
LOVE THE PIT BULLS. Hands down one of THE BEST breeds and family dogs ever! PEOPLE NEED TO DO THEIR RESEARCH, STOP THEIR IGNORANCE, AND THEIR WRONGFULLY ACCUSING. Pit Bulls and APBT are tested and proven as one of the best temperaments. With hound and toy breeds failing such temperament tests.
LONG LIVE THE BULLY BREEDS!!!
END THE IGNORANCE AND ABUSE!
LOVE THE PIT BULLS. Hands down one of THE BEST breeds and family dogs ever! PEOPLE NEED TO DO THEIR RESEARCH, STOP THEIR IGNORANCE, AND THEIR WRONGFULLY ACCUSING. Pit Bulls and APBT are tested and proven as one of the best temperaments. With hound and toy breeds failing such temperament tests.
LONG LIVE THE BULLY BREEDS!!!
END THE IGNORANCE AND ABUSE!
Everything you think you know about temperament testing is a LIE
DUMP TRUCKS......
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