Thursday, July 11, 2013

it's not you, it's not me, it's that guy behind the tree

the spate of attacks in the seattle area prompted an interview on a local radio show with a seattle dog trainer and pit bull owner. this is an unusual break from the routine which typically lines up pit bull apologists for monday morning quarterbacking and damage control. STEVE DUNO had this to say
"The dogs that participated in these attacks weren't Pekingese. You don't have herds of Pekingese roaming the city attacking people. When someone says all breeds are created equal, well then they're denying the definition of what a breed is. Breed serves a particular purpose."

"I like them. They're eager. They're athletic. They're aesthetically pleasing. But even if they're bred perfectly, they can be problematic, particularly with other dogs."

"When you combine the breed specific behaviors ... with owners who either don't give a rip, or with owners who (have) too much dog, you have a problem."

you can read more expert opinions about purpose bred dogs HERE and HERE.


seattle, washington - it's not the breed OR the owner.
four dogs wriggled through a weak spot in the fence, two pit bulldogs, a "mixed breed" and a pomeranian. after entering and exiting a strange home, the "mixed breed" bit a man who was painting a house. firefighters/medics were called to the scene. the dogs swarmed the firetruck and became aggressive towards the first responders, preventing them from treating the victim. police and animal control were called. the police tried pepper spray, then a fire extinguisher but had to shoot one of them when they charged them.

ARIES the neutered 4 yr old dirt napping "mixed breed"















warning: area patrolled by therapy pits, who, depending on the situation may or may not bite.






























KIM PACE providing an emotional, grandiose and fantastic statement to the police, while her room mates, the owners of the dogs, wring their hands in shock and hyperventilate. police need to carry paper bags for nutters to breathe into.















the reporter stated that KIM PACE identified herself as a "veterinarian" and said that she lives with the mutants which are certified "therapy dogs" who visit the elderly. PACE also stated that she has never had a problem with the dogs.  

here is tattooed "veterinarian" KIM PACE describing how wonderful the dogs are and offering up yet ANOTHER excuse.











"I've lived with them, I've had many situations where these dogs could have done something to me and they rolled over and licked me. So, it's not the breed. It's the situation."

contrast the "veterinarian's" statement with reality.
1) the dog that was shot and killed, had a bite history.
2) the veterinarian's linkedin page states she is a vet tech.
3) one of my secret squirrels contacted a previous employer who confirmed PACE worked there as a vet assistant, ie a glorified title for a pooper scooper & dog walker.

later for the seattle times interview, PACE offered up the following:
1) the shooting was unnecessary because the police KNEW that she was on her way home.
2) it's the fault of the police and firefighters because they pulled into her driveway by mistake. had they gone to the neighbor, the dogs would not have felt compelled to protect their property. (considering the dogs ran into the home of another neighbor, i suspect these mutants would have protected anything in their sight)
3) the victim's injury consisted of "barely scratched".

KOMO

seattle times



white center, washington - the other dog was the instigator.
MICHAEL STEVEN VEIDT'S two dogs escaped his yard and joined up with another neighborhood thug and attacked a 66 yr old man. the victim was trying to fight off the attackers with a pocket knife when another neighbor came to his aid.

VEIDT states that his dogs, SAVAGE and MV are "loving" and "family oriented", and blames the mystery mutant for initiating the attack. VEIDT also claims his dogs are a bullmastiff and a boxer.

this doesn't look like any bullmastiff i've ever seen. in fact, it looks a lot like that ugly "mixed breed" pictured at the top.














i guess this must be the "boxer"?













VEIDT has a colorful past. in 2007, he and one of his home boys were scooped up in a prostitution sting. VEIDT and HUTTON were charged with first degree kidnapping. VEIDT also picked up a second degree rape charge, while HUTTON was charged with pimping women.
















just for kicks, try entering VEIDT'S pimp buddy, Christopher Ilandes Hutton into the court database.

since the dogs escaped from a locked yard, the owners will not likely be charged because the police absolutely believe this story from a man with a tattoo of his area code on his neck, long criminal record and ties to the crips.
















KOMO

KOMO update

KIRO

KATU

seattle weekly

seattle PI

98 comments:

Branwyne Finch said...

Commenters are savaging Kim Pace....calling her out as a liar, noting she is a vet tech NOT a vet.

She has claimed that Aires had a CGC and was visiting nursing homes as a therapy dog. This is an aspect of the story that deserves further exploration. If it is true, it just goes to show you how utterly meaningless that CGC certificate is, and how unpredictably dangerous having a pit bull as a therapy dog is.

snack sized dog said...

Got to love the imbecilic handwringing, and the slack jawed incredulity. That betrays the amount of thought that went into getting pit bulls. But, my baby daddy's baby daddy said they got a bad rap iz all...dang.

And what's with the area code on the neck? I don't understand. Is that how they identify their turf now? 206 FO EVA! Fuck 207! What do they do when the phone company changes it? I know, they did't think that far ahead...

We need regulation because these morons are hurting innocent people with their dipshittedness

Anonymous said...

Vet techs are often losers who failed at everything else so then go on to work for a scumbag vet who barely pays. Vet tech standards are all over the map. A vet has been pushing for standardization of education, qualifications, and licensing for vet techs but his fellow vets are too damn greedy to do that. They want to hire losers they can pay peanuts to. So the quality of vet tech wildly varies from very good to VERY VERY BAD. Some of these people are killing people's pets because they are so incompetent, drugged, violent, whatever else you can think of.

Anonymous said...

You know, if I were a vet who employed a vet tech, who told the world that she was a vet, that vet tech would find themselves unemployed.

You know?

And the rest of the story is worse.

Are they passing out stupid pills at Bartell's these days?

Anonymous said...

A lot of these vet techs are pimping pits because a lot of them are breeding and selling, sometimes right through the vet's office. Vets who allow this to go in their offices and hire people like this are just as bad.

Anonymous said...

My other post didn't seem to go through so

The quality of vet tech varies from good to VERY VERY bad. A vet has been trying to get some standardization to education, qualifications, and licensing for all vet techs, but his fellow vets won't do it.

They want cheap hires, and for cheap hires they often get what they pay for- excons, druggies, violent people, insane people, and some of them are killing people's pets, or screwing up so badly they cause permanent damage.

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

Are we sure it was the poor "mixed breed" dog, who took the rap-I mean nap, that did the biting and not the Pomeranian.

You know a Pomeranian once killed a baby......

I notice "Bull Mastiff" seems to be a popular new label on dogs that are clearly more pit bull then "bull mastiff"

Anonymous said...

"aesthetically pleasing"-are you kidding me? Pit bulls have faces like an elephant's asshole with teeth.

snarky said...


i do believe vet techs are pimping pits with violent histories. having talked with some vet techs on the internet , knowing how belligerent and muleheaded these females can be , i believe this is a truly rotten situation.

snarky said...


gross ppl and their ugly mutts

scorched earth said...

In addition to being a simple lie, I believe that impersonating a licensed professional may be a felony. Ms. Pace may have bought herself a boatload of trouble. In addition to her affiliation with a public mauler of course.

dawn james said...

"aesthetically pleasing"-are you kidding me? Pit bulls have faces like an elephant's asshole with teeth.

bwahahaha!


i don't get the bullmastiff lie. they are bred to grip humans.


anon 7:17, i don't see a comment hung up in the spam folder.

Branwyne Finch said...

Aires owner claims....

"Not one of you know the story. Not one of have the right to judge myself or my dogs. Yes, Aries was much more than a therapy dog. He did scent tracking and has won more than one trial, he did Reading with Rover, visited nursing homes and snuggled with the elderly bringing smiles to their faces. He was in training to transition from tracking to search and rescue"

Reading with Rover, Seattle, has a hell of a lot of explaining to do.
That's the story within the story here....

http://readingwithrover.org/

They use labs and goldens on their website to advertise their non-profit....yet they have allowed an aggressive pit bull with a bite history into the program? I seem to recall that librarian who was threatened and harassed by BadRap for banning Jonny Justice, one of the Vick dogs, from their program. Remember, it was a pit bull "therapy dog" that mauled a police horse in Golden Gate park several years ago. I wonder how many pit bull "therapy dogs" end up attacking people or other animals?

Either Aires owner and room mates are complete liars, or the Reading with Rover program in Seattle needs to have a board meeting and discuss why they are endangering children in the program by allowing dogs with dangerous temperaments into the program. I would love to see one of the news outlets ask for a statement from Reading with Rover, I would like to hear their response.

Branwyne Finch said...

FYI, the owner of Aires admitted he had previously bitten her grandmother, and that he was a fear-biter. I wonder how the Reading with Rover program feels about the fact that they had a pit bull who had a history of biting out of "fear" going into nursing homes and libraries.

DubV said...

Only down to....

"I've lived with them, I've had many situations where these dogs could have done something to me and they rolled over and licked me. So, it's not the breed. It's the situation."

But I'm just in awe of the ability of these people to say things to wiggle out of a corner and for them and others to believe it!

I'm trying to determine what is the natural progression after "the situation" excuse fail (by the way, how dare she blame this innocent man

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3725626/).

So, if it isn't the actors in a scenario that matter, it is the just the interaction of events, then if that doesn't prove enough for nutters how far can they go along this metaphysics? Will they perhaps blame Platonic ideals?

DubV said...

I read one of those links yesterday and saw Kim Pace all over the comments defending herself in a rather sophomoric way.

She'll tucker out soon. Here's one from 9 hours ago. From the KOMO link.

It's so infuriating when someone states that you have no right to judge them and you don't know them or blah blah. Yeah, we all do have the right to judge you, Kim.

"Not one of you know the story. Not one of have the right to judge myself or my dogs. Yes, Aries was much more than a therapy dog. He did scent tracking and has won more than one trial, he did Reading with Rover, visited nursing homes and snuggled with the elderly bringing smiles to their faces. He was in training to transition from tracking to search and rescue.

My house was locked up. The dogs were inside a locked up house. The ONLY way they got out is if someone came in. And who's to say it wasnt the painter? I work graveyards at an animal emergency and critical care hospital, and the ONE day I pick up a day shift, this happens. Whos to say someone wasnt watching my roommate and I leave for work and they weaseled in? You don't. None of you do. None of you have any right to bash us without knowing us.

One of my others (which I got them back w/o question) will be jumping with Puget Sound DockDogs the 20th/21st at the Bite of Seattle. Feel free to come and see all the pups flying for Aries. Then you all can see what a "horrible" person I am and how mean my dogs are."

DubV said...

" having talked with some vet techs on the internet , knowing how belligerent and muleheaded these females can be"

Snarky, I just realized that out of the many vet techs I have interacted with in person over animals, maybe only 2 were male. Odd. Much more skewed toward females than medical assistants, etc.

Anonymous said...

I can tell you personally that the young people who I have known who are currently vet techs, or studying to be vet techs were all kids who dropped out of our local public high school to attend vocational school for a variety of reasons; usually because they had social, behavioral, or academic problems that meant they were not going to college. Some of them have learning disabilities and were from alt-ed programs.

Basically, these were kids that had few career options, some from troubled homes, who lacked the ability to get a college degree, for whatever reason . This is not a field that is comparable to the human medical field, where you can attend community college and get an associates degree and become some sort of medical technician....you can't just graduate from high school and start working as an x-ray tech and learn "on the job" working at a local hospital. There is no certification required to work in many vet offices, though some vets may require it in their individual practices, it's not regulated.

scorched earth said...

Anybody else get stuck on this quote? "One of my others (which I got them back w/o question) will be jumping with Puget Sound DockDogs the 20th/21st at the Bite of Seattle."

A festival populated by vicious dogs called "the Bite of Seattle"? LOL! Think I will pass on that one.

tropical storms said...

How could anyone be so oblivious as to not appreciate the irony of "Bite of Seattle"? Now, who's taking side bets on the resultant dog fights?

dawn james said...

my experience of vet techs, is similar. overwhelmingly female and they puff up and strut like bouncers in a biker bar. they are there to protect the doctor.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Delusional pit nutter vet tech. Why am I not surprised?

Are there any vet techs that are not pit nutters?

TS,

Pit quotes are full of irony. The nanny dog myth yet pits are the top killers of children by domestic dog. The pit nutter quote, "It's all in how you raise them" yet some pit puppies come out of the womb ready to kill their litter mates. And the list goes on and on.

snarky said...


saw one today with her ugly mutant , id bet my life shes a vet tech or a body mod specialist . her dog musta eaten already cuz it wasnt wearing its muzzle .

dawn james said...

"Are there any vet techs that are not pit nutters?"

there is at least one. she contacts me from time to time.

dawn james said...

check these comments out from the drama queen nutter vet tech:

Hey Dawn I am an emergency and critical care technician, and I pretty much do everything except the surgery itself. I have been doing this for over 20 yrs. Come and talk this trash to my face

(i think i was just challenged to duel, lol)

Well since you know me, why dont you just ask me what I said and didnt say??? I never told anyone I was a vet, I said I work in the vet field. Do you always believe what you hear on the news, you are that person arent you. Please come up to my work I dare you, please come make an ass of yourself and feel foolish

(i wonder what her employer thinks about this invitation?)

The EMTs were not denied access to the walking and not critical man, because he could have walked out the persons front door and completely separate drive to meet them outside. BUt NOOOOOO they wanted to all block my long and private drive and throw things at the dogs, shoot them with smoke bombs and mace and spray fire extinguishers at them, on their own front lawn. They were surrounding the small dog and protecting her, and also having an issue with pack mentality, but I am sure you know all about animal behavior and have lots of training in this right???

(i am sure none of us combined possess as much knowledge and training as the omnipotent vet tech)

OH and we all know how forthcoming the law enforcement is when telling the facts right???? I hope you never have to have your pet treated anywhere, since I work at most of the emergency and critical care units and take my career very seriously and am passionate about them being cared for and helped. But I neglect to have safe and well trained animals in my own home. Seem a little off to you??? I have been in this field for over 20 yrs...how bout you what do you do?

(reality check please. did she actually do what i think she just did? is she threatening to deny treatment to patients? to the animals she loves? a job that she is serious and passionate about?

snarky said...


yep , shes quintissential nutter vet tech , like the one i had threatening me with harm if i ever came to her place of business. lol

and they dont want to be stereotyped , or their mutant maulers

tropical storms said...

Rumpel, any statement other than "they were created exclusively for animal combat" is a fictional accounting of the purpose of the breed. It's just difficult to come to terms with the intentional obtuseness of these latter day dingfucks. Even the dog fighters had a leg up on these people, they were at least honest about the dogs. They also had an actual reason for having them, if you want to match dogs you want a combat dog. Of the many things I find funny is the continual use of the word "game ". People outside the fancy seem to confuse aggression with gameness when those two traits have nothing at all to do with one another. Ten minute curs can be more aggressive than a truly game dog. It's the aggression which drives the attack and even a rank cur will stay on an animal incapable of hurting it until it's quarry is dead. It matters not the species of the victims a bulldog, even a 10 minute cur, will stay to the
finish. A cur only shows cur when a better bulldog is on it, not a lab, cat, cow, horse or human.

orangedog said...

Yep, I think she just said she would deny treatment to "haterz" pets. And she's still denying that her double-bite history and now dirt napped dog wasn't safe. Derp.

Oh and as for the "aesthetically pleasing" quote:
Those serpent eyes and alligator maw are just soooo cute!
Seriously, one ugly dog to match it's horrible function.

orangedog said...

Case in point, check out this aesthetically pleasing mutant:

http://www.dogsbitedecatural.com/2013/07/longview-tx-pit-bull-that-neighbor-was.html

Fugly and shit colored (as Snarky likes to say).

Rumpelstiltskin said...

TS,

I don't know of any other breed where gameness is a required or even desired trait of the breed. The only reason I can think of for the gameness trait is to kill at all costs. I also believe this trait is what attracts the unsavory and mentally unstable people we've come to know as pit bull owners.

There's just something wrong with breeding a dog so that it will ignore it's instinct to preserve it's own life to complete a "task". It goes against nature and probably why too many pits become psychopaths.

Seems pit nutters love the idea that their pit bull dog will fight to the death for them as most people who know them wouldn't take a piss on them if they were on fire.

While aggression is a separate from gameness, it's a vital component to dog fighting and the pit bull dog.

I believe why people confuse it or like myself, consider it one in the same is that pit bull dogs are bred with DA as another major trait of the breed. So when we see a pit locked onto another dog, all those traits DA, gameness, and aggression are all displayed for everyone to gawk at.

tropical storms said...

Gameness is not aggression, it is the drive to complete a genetically driven trait. That trait may be racing nose to nose with another horse for a thoroughbred even past survivable limits, the same with racing homing pigeons. They are completely separate things, one does not necessarily attend the other.

tropical storms said...

Gameness is not aggression, it is the drive to complete a genetically driven trait. That trait may be racing nose to nose with another horse for a thoroughbred even past survivable limits, the same with racing homing pigeons. They are completely separate things, one does not necessarily attend the other.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

TS,

I'll let pit nutters own the term gameness. I prefer not to use that term to describe other breeds of dogs, horses, pigeons, or humans.

Anonymous said...

So according to this trainer's take I'd like to know who, exactly, is qualified to own and handle a breed that was designed for the SOLE purpose of maiming and killing other animals; and why that breed should even be permitted since no matter where it is it will encounter other people's pets. There is NO damn reason anyone NEEDS to own a pit bull unless they are using the dog for what it was bred for-DOGFIGHTING.

tropical storms said...

Anonymous, exactly right. If you want to fight dogs you get a fighting dog, otherwise WTF.

orangedog said...

I would be pissed as hell if I found out that the library was using pit bulls to indoctrinate the kiddies. Let's face it, these pitiots aren't volunteering out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it to prove a point and take a stand against normal people who don't like fighting dogs around their kids.
Is the Pom a therapy dog too? Why would you not use the Pom unless you wanted to aggressively push pibbles on people.

DubV said...

Wow, this Kim is delusional even by pit nutter standards. She wasn't there. Her dogs got out, bit someone, and then prevented emergency personnel from helping out. They charged emergency personnel and LEO even tried non-lethal means first before dirt napping her dog.

She wasn't there. But she just knows better.

The whole world should bend to her little fur children that had a bad day.

I haven't said for a while how much I hate pit nutters.

I'm leaving for a 5 day trip. Talk to everyone here when I get back, unless I get bored at night and the hotel has internet ;)

DubV said...

"Seems pit nutters love the idea that their pit bull dog will fight to the death for them as most people who know them wouldn't take a piss on them if they were on fire."

I'm gonna have to steal that one!

DubV said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
snarky said...


i sure wouldnt piss on a burning pitbull , its owner might attack me for dissing and pissing on his dawg.

im sure pittie would still be wagging its crispy tail.

awesome dogs , the abuse they gladly take .lol

snarky said...


saggy pant zombie people

and their hoodie dawgs

"the walking brain dead"

snarky said...


i think DOGHATERSUNITED might want to steal those last remarks of mine,

they have my permission.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

DubV,

You sure can.

snarky said...


ugly dog stabbed all over and dying but still waggin its tail.

awesome abuse dogs ....she fought to the death and died happy lol

the perfect dog for thugs and pimps

snarky said...


on tv i saw a naked black man on pcp fighting with five sweating cops for ten minutes .

thats what shitbulls are like when they go shitbullish.

snarky said...


anon

you sure can .

Anonymous said...

// I don't know of any other breed where gameness is a required or even desired trait of the breed. The only reason I can think of for the gameness trait is to kill at all costs. [...]There's just something wrong with breeding a dog so that it will ignore it's instinct to preserve it's own life to complete a "task".

First of all, I am not a nutter and don't want to come close to a pit (or many others dangerous breeds). I hope people with more dog knowledge will explain me something I wondered about for a while.

What about military war dogs? Not the ones used for sniffing bombs, but for attacking people. Military breeds special dogs for the task, right? Aren't they "game" (against people) too?

Also, one reads sometimes about military dogs returning to US with their handlers or with other people. Are they not ticking bombs too? I understand patriotism makes some people see them as military heroes to be saved almost at all costs, but I wouldn't want to live near one in a flat close to mine. One mistake of a handler and even best humans make mistakes, the dog thinks I am a terrorist and I am dead.

Or am I wrong and dogs used specifically to attack people don't come back?

Anonymous said...

My first comment was lost, so I will try to summarize here. I am not a lover of pits (or other dangerous breeds) and the quesion is out of desire to understand dogs more.

Aren't war dogs "game" too? I mean not bomb detection dogs, but specifically ones used to attack people. Do the latter return to US too, or only the former? And, if dogs used to attack return, aren't they ticking bombs? Wouldn't want to have one living in a flat close to mine. One human mistake, the dog thinks I am a terrorist and I am dead fast.

S.K.Y. said...

Anonymous 12:31, most attack-trained dogs today are not attacking out of aggression. They are attacking out of toy/play drive. They are trained specifically to bite sleeves and/or legs of bite suits. If they grab the bite suit, shake and hang on for a while, their reward is that the decoy sheds part of the bite suit, and the dog carries their trophy tuggy-toy back to the owner for some more tug. Depending on the breed, some of these dogs have a degree of sharpness, where they might go after somebody from aggression. However, most attack trained dogs today are perfectly friendly with people. They are just learning to "grab their toy and shake it" on command. They are not intending to hurt anybody--they just have the concept that people are wearing tug toys on certain parts of their bodies, and that they're allowed to grab these tug toys when given permission.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the reply, SKY. But specifically returning from abroad military attack dogs are different and dangerous, no?

Anonymous said...

Police, military and PP trained dogs don't want to hurt anybody? I thought it could be true only for pets in competitions, not a dog used in RL dangerous situations.

SadFalada said...

My parents are in their 80's and my feelings of tender protectiveness towards these people that loved. taught, and with strength, humor, and capable assurance, brought up our large family, is so poignant and intense, that any thought of physical threat to them makes me maniacal.
People bring pit bulls into nursing homes to make a point. TO MAKE A POINT.
And as these vulnerable, trusting, smiling, physically weakened, often lonely old people (who have often survived terrible life ordeals) reach to stroke the massive bone, muscle, toothed and brainless skull of the therapy pit bull, it's nice, gratifying theatre, isn't it? The dog stands, sullen and unresponsive, or robotically waves it's tail and mimes friendliness till something, oh, anything, looks like it could be easily defeated.
despicably self-serving, and are the vet-techs and therapy-dog delusionistas who invite us to personally confront them so foolish as to think that the enemies of pit bulls are so timid, ineffectual and polite, that tattoos, gibberish, and imposing beer-and-fast-food physique will intimidate us? If a pit bull, or any dog of known dangerous potential, was invited to approach, and then harmed, my parents, I, myself, will be laying down some "education"

Anonymous said...

Nursing homes, library reading programs and hospitals (surely I missed something) should all have standards, both regarding the breed and the temperament of an individual dog. I read about owners bringing rottweilers to hospitals too. Or complaints "I wanted our rott puppy to be a therapy dog, but now he begins growling at random people. Does it mean he won't be a therapy dog, or can I train him out of it?"

I would prohibit all guarding and gripping breeds from participating in therapy work. Sure, may be your rott or shepherd could be one, but there are many shepherds with fear aggression issues and many owners of more dangerous breeds feel like admitting their dog isn't cut for therapy work is a personal failure.

Anonymous said...

Nursing homes, library reading programs and hospitals (surely I missed something) should all have standards, both regarding the breed and the temperament of an individual dog. I read about owners bringing rottweilers to hospitals too. Or complaints "I wanted our rott puppy to be a therapy dog, but now he begins growling at random people. Does it mean he won't be a therapy dog, or can I train him out of it?"

I would prohibit all guarding and gripping breeds from participating in therapy work. Sure, may be your rott or shepherd could be one, but there are many shepherds with fear aggression issues and many owners of more dangerous breeds feel like admitting their dog isn't cut for therapy work is a personal failure.

Anonymous said...

Nursing homes, library reading programs and hospitals (surely I missed something) should all have standards, both regarding the breed and the temperament of an individual dog. I read about owners bringing rottweilers to hospitals too. Or complaints "I wanted our rott puppy to be a therapy dog, but now he begins growling at random people. Does it mean he won't be a therapy dog, or can I train him out of it?"

I would prohibit all guarding and gripping breeds from participating in therapy work. Sure, may be your rott or shepherd could be one, but there are many shepherds with fear aggression issues and many owners of more dangerous breeds feel like admitting their dog isn't cut for therapy work is a personal failure.

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

At one of the major trauma hospitals in the area near where I live they specifically have in their rules for therapy dogs that they will not allow pit bulls, rottweilers or dobermans.

They do not take people at their word and a CGC, like so many other facilities do, but run the dog and handler through some of their own testing as well.

snarky said...


maybes pitbulls have a brain chemical similar to PCP that needs counteracting with more of last-nites beer-n- pizza . maybe thats why trailer people let their dogs out at night ... to go forage for scraps of pizza and dregs of spilled n puked beer ? keeps dem fat n sweet n lazy n giving kisses all around to all the little trailer people ( trailer kids)

snarky said...


see pitbulls up on your porch and they may just be foraging for their antidote . very carefully slide a plate of beer soggy pizza out through da screen door but dont look at them directly , avert your gaze so as not to trigger an attack .

SadFalada said...

Dawn, I think we need to be more sensitive to the needs of this vet-tech. She requests that you meet her at her workplace? Maybe she has no transportation; maybe she's encumbered with an ankle monitor; maybe she hopes to befriend you after displaying some intimate tattoos-she is omnipresent in the bottom echelons of animal-care power, so follow the perfume of dog ordure, and Know That She Is Everywhere....



Packhorse said...

So, what happens when one of these stunt pits is paraded into the hospital room of a person who has been mauled by a pit?

Miss Margo said...

@SadFalada 6:29 AM

Very powerful comment. Thank you, please comment again.

SKY, thanks for the info about dogs used for bite work. The New Yorker had a great article about the GSDs and Belgian Manalois(sp?) used by NY City police and the MTA...it discussed how they trained the dogs; I'll try to find the link...

Have a great trip, DubV!

Anonymous said...

Packhorse, I am surprised none of those therapy pits have mauled a patient or a reading child in a library yet. No doubt that day will come.

Anonymous said...

Miss Margo, please, do link. It sounds very interesting.

Branwyne Finch said...

SadFalada, you nailed it. I spent years in LTC facilities, visiting a family member, and toured many more. Most therapy dogs I encountered were non-threatening, friendly breeds. The primary concern should be for the patients health, safety and comfort. Many frail elderly people are afraid of large dogs, and under no circumstance should physically intimidating guarding or fighting breeds be used for therapy work, regardless of their temperaments, because those dogs make residents uncomfortable and frightened. In many cases, residents with cognitive or physical impairments are unable to communicate their discomfort, and forcing them to interact with these physically intimidating dogs is a form of elder abuse.

Anyone who gets a Rott or pit bull, etc., with the intention of using it for therapy work is delusional, and only doing it to gain attention and bragging points for their dog. There are only two videos of some of the Vick dogs doing "therapy work", both bizarre. In one Jonny Justice is led around a perimeter of seated children all the while being lured with treats; the handler discouraged him from having any direct contact with the children. In another video, a woman drags her Vick dog around a hospital cancer ward while patients are getting chemo, babbling on and on about the dog (not asking patients anything about themselves) while stopping occasionally to make out with it (kissing it on the mouth, fondling it's ears, etc.)

No sick child or elderly adult should be forced to interact with a scary animal to give mentally unstable zealots something to brag about.

Anonymous said...

I found the article, but w/o subscription can read only beginning. :(

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/02/27/120227fa_fact_bilger


// Anyone who gets a Rott or pit bull, etc., with the intention of using it for therapy work is delusional

I read a rott owner describing how his breed has a unique place in a therapy work with elderly because some like calmer, less in one's face dogs than goldens and because ... rotts don't like all people from the start, thus letting patients experience the building a relationship process during several dog visits. And some appreciate something that has to be earned, instead of a dog who is everybody's friend.

Anonymous said...

I found the article, but w/o subscription can read only beginning. :(

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/02/27/120227fa_fact_bilger


// Anyone who gets a Rott or pit bull, etc., with the intention of using it for therapy work is delusional

I read a rott owner describing how his breed has a unique place in a therapy work with elderly because some like calmer, less in one's face dogs than goldens and because ... rotts don't like all people from the start, thus letting patients experience the building a relationship process during several dog visits. And some appreciate something that has to be earned, instead of a dog who is everybody's friend.

Meg F.B. said...

The comment of 'too much dog' pisses me off.

My sister's Golden retriever is a high drive dog. If he gets out of his yard, he runs down the dirt road to the lake and swims and swims.

I have a bc. When he gets out.. uh, nothing actually LOL since he doesn't run off, but IF he was being 'drivey', he will station himself under the barn waiting for a chicken escape so he can be useful.

What's missing: neither dog mauls anyone. Actually, even though they are known to be biters (and aren't an 'everyman's dog) I can't find a single instance of a border ever killing someone. They can have poor social skills (since they are working dogs, and were traditionally not housepets at all), be wary of strangers and dislike other dogs. But that doesn't make them killers.

'Too much dog' is the fall-back excuse for when the 'it's how you raise them' excuse fails. Either way, it's NEVER the breed, NEVER genetics, NEVER the fault of anyone but the poor asshole who (hopefully) tried their ultimate best to do it right.

Anonymous said...

I found the article, but w/o subscription can read only beginning. :(

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/02/27/120227fa_fact_bilger


// Anyone who gets a Rott or pit bull, etc., with the intention of using it for therapy work is delusional

I read a rott owner describing how his breed has a unique place in a therapy work with elderly because some like calmer, less in one's face dogs than goldens and because ... rotts don't like all people from the start, thus letting patients experience the building a relationship process during several dog visits. And some appreciate something that has to be earned, instead of a dog who is everybody's friend.

Branwyne Finch said...

"I read a rott owner describing how his breed has a unique place in a therapy work with elderly because some like calmer, less in one's face dogs than goldens and because ... rotts don't like all people from the start, thus letting patients experience the building a relationship process during several dog visits. And some appreciate something that has to be earned, instead of a dog who is everybody's friend."

You are misinformed about therapy work if you think that the dogs are allowed to be "in someone's face". Goldens excel at this type of work, in part because so many lines have been bred to be calm and nonreactive. Watch video of the Canine Comfort Dog Ministry at work in Newtown and Boston and you will see what I mean.

My pediatrician is on his second Golden, which accompanies him to the office each day. From puppyhood, the dog was not "mouthy" did not jump on people, but was clearly a social, connected dog with a special affinity for children. My funeral director's Golden came into the office while I was making arrangements to bury my mother....he sat by my chair when I called him over, then gently laid his head in my lap and let me stroke his head, while I did some paperwork. He is not a trained therapy dog, he is a natural.

Therapy dogs are born, not made....the training they should receive is just a way to polish them. They need to be obedience trained and bomb proof. Having a therapy dog come in and be aloof and ignore you, and simply tolerate petting, because a few people out there want to feel that they "earned" the dog's friendship is a pretty bizarre way to rationalize using ill-suited dogs for therapy work.

Guarding breeds like Rotts are not supposed to be "friendly with strangers"....it is part of what they are. Why try to force a dog that clearly doesn't enjoy engaging with strangers into therapy work just to prove you can?

And my original point had nothing to do with the therapy dogs temperament....what if a Rott did not display a temperament typical for the breed, and was a good candidate for therapy work? Residents and patients would still find a huge, hulking, black, scary guard dog intimidating. If a dog's physical appearance alone makes people uncomfortable, then it shouldn't be allowed inside the facility.

Because therapy work is supposed to be about the RESIDENTS, not the dog handler.

Anonymous said...

Branwyne Finch, I agree with you. Previously I decided to report how the dangerous breeds' owners justify their behavior to themselves.

F.e. to your claim:

// Residents and patients would still find a huge, hulking, black, scary guard dog intimidating.

The owner would say that only patients who agreed would be visited by his dog.

I think most people would be afraid, at least a bit, except former rott and pit owners, the people believing "it's all how they are raised" and the completely ignorant.

May be, the belief "if my dog's love has to be earned, it really loves me, unlike those goldens" held by pit owners is one of the reasons they are pit addicted. The rott owner said exactly that, no?

Packhorse said...

Take a look at a Labrador bite that has been deemed worthy of the Lab's euthanasia.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/family-dog-to-be-killed-for-nipping-child/

Compare this to a pit bite.

Branwyne Finch said...

Anon, I agree with you......these owners have a perverted sense of what normal people want from dogs.

I can't help but think that if background checks were required for handlers, most of these "pit therapy" dogs would disappear.....

Miss Margo said...

Anon: Yup, that's the article...it's long and very good. The New Yorker has some excellent journalism from time to time. I let my subscription lapse because I eventually became disgusted by Malcolm Gladwell (sp?) and the smug bourgeois tone of the thing...but my politics are neither here nor there, so never mind.

I'm not home, but let me check my records when I return. I might have saved the article in PDF format when I had a subscription. If I have it, I can send it to you myself or via a 3rd person like Dawn, if she is cool with that (I'm not volunteering her for anything).

And Goldens are GREAT dogs!!! I love them. Used to have one. They are so happy and loving! Real heart-melters. Smart, too. Three cheers for Goldens. I want to google images Goldens right now! lol

I've read Pit Nutters complain about labs and goldens being biters, and while I suppose the random bad apple does exist, I've never met one that was threatening or even aloof. The enthusiasm and water/tennis-ball mania can be exhausting, but those breeds are sweet as sugar and it makes me angry when pit nutters put them down.

But labs/goldens don't need my support. They are too busy doing stuff like helping blind people navigate busy streets and finding stockpiles of drugs in airport luggage. Speaks for itself.

Anonymous said...

SadFalada, yes, these people are shoving pit bulls in the faces of elderly people in nursing homes to make a point but more than that to protect their financial interests in these breeds. Here is one of them
http://www.wickedlocal.com/ipswich/news/x227410263 Holly Stump is a pit bull (AKC Staffordshire Terrier) breeder in Ipswich Massachusetts, along with several other pit breeders. When the state of Massachusetts was talking about tightening up laws after some pit attacks, Holly suddenly contacted a reporter for a local freebie paper and announced she was into pit bull therapy, Hence the public relations photo of her shoving a stressed pit bull in the face of an infirm elderly person and letting it lick the woman's face (infections?) It was all a show to protect Holly's business and she was using these elderly people as lobbying ammo. Holly is also an AKC lobbyist with NAIA another rabid anti-regulation breeding lobby. But the fact is that a criminally irresponsible nursing home let her in there!

Anonymous said...

Also, SadFalada, a lot of the people doing this, like Holly, are very middle class, at least on the outside appearance wise.

Meg F.B. said...

Packhorse said...

Take a look at a Labrador bite that has been deemed worthy of the Lab's euthanasia.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/family-dog-to-be-killed-for-nipping-child/

That doesn't even look like a dog bite. And if you read the article, it sounds like the dog 'attacks' are actually mouthing behavior (if you've been around a lab or a golden, you know what I am talking about. They like to have something in their mouths- not to destroy, not to play with, just to carry around). Poor dog, that article is a horrible testament to human politics, and says absolutely nothing about labs.

Anonymous said...

"Therapy dogs are born, not made"

If you mean that breeders need to breed them, that is absolutely untrue, as evidenced by the high washout rate of the dogs "bred" for therapy, which results in more dogs being sold as pets to compete with the ones being given up by the public.

There are many service dog organizations that use shelter dogs (mixes of companion breeds) and are very successful and also are not afflicted with the devestating problems of purebreds, such as the outrageous high cancer rates among goldens thanks to the AKC breeders that stubbornly won't face reality.

It's all about the testing and training. Some dogs make it, some don't, and breeding for the service dog industry is no more successful than testing and training shelter dogs/mixes.

Service dog breeding is an industry. It is NOT charity. It's a business and that's why it has been easy for the pit people to infiltrate. The abuses and dishonesty in the service dog industry has reached epic proportions lately, in part because breeders are rationalizing breeding and looking for new markets.

Anonymous said...

"However, most attack trained dogs today are perfectly friendly with people"

There's a reason that muzzles are standard operating procedure in police departments unless a specific behavior is required and that isn't playing fetch.

Anonymous said...

The service dog industry can be a very deep dark and dirty pit, covered with a glow of feel good that hides a lot of the problems. Here's an experience. This is far from uncommon, and many other problems too.

"We recently donated our dog to a service dog foundation. Now they gave it to a veteran with PTSD, and his wife asked us if our dog has gone to dog shows and has papers, we haven't told them anything about the dog. in reality, she is a European champion. she also has papers.

Now the thing is, the new 'owner' asked us if she has ever been bred before and all kinds of questions. The service dog foundation we donated the dog to, seems kind of like a big scam now. if they breed her, they will get about 2,000 to 3,000 dollar puppies. our intention was to help soldiers with PTSD, not give her away so someone else can make a $21,000 profit. We cant do anything about it because we signed papers that gives the ownership to the service dog foundation as long as she gets treated as a service dog. we asked our veterinarian about the foundation to make sure it wasnt a scam before we signed the damn papers and the vet hasnt heard anything bad about them.

is it legal to use service dogs to make a profit by breeding them?"

SadFalada said...

Thank you, I'm not so naive that I think pit bulls are owned exclusively by a particular subset of people, just as I understand people in prison come from every walk of life.

Branwyne Finch said...

Anon, what I meant was temperament is something a dog is born with, so you can't take a dog that is genetically high strung and a fear biter, and "rehabilitate" him into a safe "therapy dog". That is what many pit bull advocates are doing.

Anonymous said...

Google an article called 'Service with a Snarl' in the San Francisco Weekly. The ultimate take on the huge 'service dog' problem.

SadFalada said...

Yep, no way that's a dog bite, totally baffled by what it could be, but, circular? With an even pattern of equal pressure, all in fine points? what's that extra red spot in the center? Aha! I've got it--sea lamprey!

orangedog said...

I think it's a hickie.
Where's the Lexus Group on this one? Here's a dog that has a death sentence for a "bite" that doesn't look like it even needed a bandaid.
I guess they are too busy saving Onion, the dog that killed his owner's grandson. Yeah, gotta save Onion. He generates more cash.

dawn james said...

what a lively discussion for a saturday. so happy to see sadfalada active in the current blog posts so everyone can appreciate her intelligent wit. i've been enjoying myself immensely for the last month as she has been making her way through the older parts of this swamp.

the lexus group and pit nutters are probably eager to see this lab killed. as soon as he is out of the way, they can all turn him into an urban legend and add him to the short list of vicious poms, doxies and goldens.

i blogged about that vick service dog HERE. you can compare leo's magic to the work of real therapy dogs.

here is that article service with a snarl. i remember this. it's an oldie but a goodie and just as relevant today, maybe more.

the bulk of the pit nutters can be found orbiting the axis 2 cluster B galaxy of personality disorders:
(dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders)

Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of disregard for the rights of others, lack of empathy
Borderline personality disorder: pervasive pattern of instability in relationships, self-image, identity, behavior and affects often leading to self-harm and impulsivity
Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive pattern of attention-seeking behavior and excessive emotions
Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy

regarding the idiots featured in part one of this blog post, you can expect a followup. i prefer blogging about the middle class professionals over the lower class thugs. they are more interesting and are a greater challenge.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget pathological altruism: doing what they perceive as good (pit rescue) until someone ELSE gets hurt (victims). http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=56192

orangedog said...

Oh, forgot to mention there was a conspicuous absence at puppy class this week. No pit bull! Wonder where little game boy is...

Sputnik2009 said...

Anonymous, 7-13, 1:03 pm: "Service dog breeding is an industry. It is NOT charity."

Sure is. I assume you've read the Coppingers' excellent commentary on this (Chapter 8 in their book 'Dogs', 2001) -- and if not, get ahold of it, you'll love it.

Anonymous said...

"I've lived with them, I've had many situations where these dogs could have done something to me and they rolled over and licked me. So, it's not the breed. It's the situation."

-So I guess when it's YOUR pit bull 'It's the owner, not the breed' is suddenly no longer valid. Hahahahahahahahaha!

dawn james said...

anon 452, i think there is a great deal of overlap between pathological altruism and axis 2 cluster b personality disorders.

this is a fantastic book and so much more valuable than what is portrayed in that right wing review - although i agree with their criticisms of the left and it put political correctness in a better light.

Pathological Altruism is a great book. even though i still haven't finished it, i strongly recommend it. even at $50, it is money well spent since there is nothing else like it. hopefully these intrepid authors will change that.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Orangedog,

So the pit pup is MIA? The pit bull owners didn't want another opportunity for you and others to watch them coo over their pit pup and prove everyone wrong and that they are the ultimate lion tamers?

Must have been a yard accident or something. Maybe the pit pup has turned.

Anonymous said...

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/valley-woman-denied-service-dog-company-keeps-her-20k

orangedog said...

Pittie puppy was getting worse, but I don't know what happened to him. They may have just skipped that class. I suspect that the owners will go through the same song and dance, like the latest Craven post, trying all the right things but getting nowhere.

Branwyne Finch said...

FYI....I am not sure if any of you remember the story from this anonymous poster 2 years ago...
very similar, only the end result was tragic...

http://cravendesires.blogspot.com/2011/02/tia-torres-tehachapi-bully.html


I was an upper middle-class pit bull owner just like you. My husband is a doctor and I am a stay-at-home soccer mom and we live in a lovely suburban neighbourhood. We got our dog as a puppy from a reputable breeder and put her through puppy classes and basic obedience. She was spayed and properly vaccinated, stayed indoors and was very loved. I used to defend the breed to everyone I met, just like you. I used to think I knew my dog inside and out, and I was sure she would never, ever hurt my child.

Then my dog turned 3 and, literally overnight, her dog-aggression came out. She tried to attack the neighbour's poodle through the backyard fence (she had been in a fenced yard beside this same dog literally thousands of times with no show of aggression). When my 8 year old daughter tried to pull her away from the fence, our pit bull locked onto her forearm (she only got her forearm because my daughter threw it up to protect her face, she was going for the face) and it took 8 minutes for my husband to beat her off, he eventually wound up using the weed whacker, after a baseball bat broke over the dog's back without even being noticed by her. My daughter lost partial use of her right arm and she is still relearning all of the basic skills with her left. Her life will never be the same.

We have been accused of being at fault for not "being there to call off the dog". Well, we were there, we were sitting on patio chairs watching my daughter throw a ball for our pet, who she had spent three years playing with and which had never shown so much as a lip lift to anyone or anything up to that point. We couldn't, physically, call off the dog. We couldn't physically BEAT off the dog for over 5 minutes. After the dog was off my daughter, my husband was on the ground struggling with it to keep it from going at her again as I pulled her into the house. There was so mcuh blood that I kept sliding on it and falling down. There are still blood stains on the patio almost 2 years later. All the dog wanted was to get back on my daughter and finish the job. The dog didn't make any noise while she was attacking and her tail was wagging faster and harder than it had ever wagged before. I believed then, and I believe now, that that dog was the happiest it had ever been when it was locked onto my daughter and trying to kill her.

Let me tell you, you have no idea - none - how completely different pit bulls are from normal pet dogs. When that dog was triggered she went from being a goofy pet and companion to being a cold-blooded predator in a millisecond. You cannot imagine what it is like knowing that your dog is trying to kill your child and knowing that it might just succeed because it is stronger than you are. There is nothing like it in the world.

There was no news coverage of my dog's attack on my daughter. None. So much for the overhyped media aspect, hush?

You are insane to own a fighting dog when you have children. Absolutely insane. I wish we had been protected from our own stupidity by legislation. What is worse is that you are also, by your own admission of a picket fence the dog could easily escape over, putting other people's children at risk. Fighting dogs are not pets and we need laws in place to protect people from them.

Miss Margo said...

Jesus Branwyne, my hair turned white just reading that...

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Branwyne,

Living with a pit bull is like living with a terrorist. Only difference is the pit dog doesn't have a choice.

Branwyne Finch said...

I meant to post this in the thread above....I want the author of the e-mail to read it, the story is similar...

snarky said...


WARNING ! THERAPY PIT ON DUTY , DO NOT PET .