Sunday, October 6, 2013

nutters eating their own

BONES, the dog who lives on and on and on...














the no kill kooks at lexus project and a toledo pit nutter/rescue angel are having a public dispute.

good times. 

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

part 5

part 6

part 7

part 8

part 9

part 10!

thanks to scorched earth for following these lunatics and bringing this scandal to our attention.

281 comments:

1 – 200 of 281   Newer›   Newest»
Miss Margo said...

Well, that was entertaining.

My money says the Toledo pit nutter helped smuggle Bones to a new location. Though I'm stumped as to why anyone would want that ugly dogo.

Did you see that writing (with photos!) of Bones doing "spin-and-destroy?"

TLP Facebook was crazy HQ, too. Ugh! All that hand-wringing and cloying sentimentality for killers!

It sort of makes me mad that they use a greyhound as their logo, but they seem primarily preoccupied with pits and rotties. Greyhounds are nice normal dogs.

dawn james said...

you are not kidding about the lexus project (need to spell that out for google search engines) being the head quarters for crazy (move over best friends, move over winograd!). the dog hater blogger referred to them as canine al quaeda. it fits. i like the way the lexus project keeps bumping 'DONATE to our general fund' to the top. gotta exploit all of that increased traffic!

i hope the lack of comments here is not indicative of a lack of interest in this scandal. there's a lot to read in those three links, but it's good stuff. like the realization that lexus project did not do the most basic research before placing a dangerous dog entrusted to them by the courts. now they are shocked and pissed off that a nutter lied to them about their 5013c status. within 2 minutes of watching kathy sutter in the video, i wouldn't trust her with a cup of sugar. then they discover, this is not the first dog that kathy sutter "lost". some even speculate that the two missing dogs killed each other.

this BONES fiasco proves that these no kill freaks are either the most gullible demographic ever or the most corrupt.
I'M SHOCKED!

in a perfect world, this would be the death of the lexus project.

snack sized dog said...

Oh. Yes. This is a dog that is known for, even famous for, attacking a person, apparently on command. Yet the Lexus project whips up a lost n found poster that describes him as a big baby and ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO CALL HIM TO THEM if they see him.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4685228087247&set=o.187783847979483&type=1&theater

Kat the crazy "rescuer" claims that his list of bite reports from NYC is FOUR PAGES LONG

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=403720803045609&set=a.104360209648338.9111.100002230780008&type=1&permPage=1

HEAVEN HELP TOLEDO

shar pei mix said...

Schadenboner.

(Sorry, just had to de-lurk for that one.)

tropical storms said...

This would be funny if not for a dangerous dog on the loose. I hope I'm wrong but it reads as if that psycho pitiot is also planning to keep cats among the killer dogs. WTF?

Branwyne Finch said...

What's fascinating about all the fans at both of these rescue groups is that they are almost exclusively female. I just wonder if this is some sort of sub-culture within dog rescue, or a predominant culture. They remind me of the women who sent Drew Peterson marriage proposals while he was in prison. There seems to be this infantile, groupie dynamic going on, where all these women coo and gush about these dogs, calling them "sweet babies", etc.

Any psych majors out there looking for a topic for their doctoral thesis? This may be a good one.

I am just trying to understand the mindset of someone who wants to spend huge amounts of time and money "saving" dangerous dogs, when that time and money could have saved dozens of friendly, happy, normal dogs that will be euthanized for lack of space or resources in some shelter somewhere.

That's the real tragedy.....there are nice dogs sitting in shelters that require NO rehabilitation, that can go home and fit seamlessly into a new owners life and bring a decade or more of joy to some person or family. And dogs like this are euthanized every day, while these crackpot animal welfare organizations spend a fortune on dangerous dogs that will NEVER be safe in a pet home.

snack sized dog said...

"Any psych majors out there looking for a topic for their doctoral thesis? This may be a good one."

Seriously! On the rescuer's about me page she says she specializes in large dogs with fear aggression and then puts a smiley behind it. She is so dang proud of herself! Its all about her and what she can handle and not about saving dogs.

And WTF - she lives in a tiny house on a small lot in a residential neighborhood with 15 dogs many or all of which are labeled dangerous?? And the City of Toledo does nothing about it?

Doesn't anyone in Toledo care about their own safety if not the quality of life in Toledo? Apart from the inherent danger, how does she dispose of the waste generated by 15 large dogs every single day? Even if she manages to walk all those dogs every day, which I doubt, the neighborhood garbage cans would be filling up pretty fast - and if she disposes of it on her property, it would be a public health hazard. and where does all the urine go? Four Large dogs would make a lot that small a putrid wasteland in a month. I cringe.

orangedog said...

Haha, so this kooky bitch tried to steal her kindergarten class hamster and was foiled. This "misunderstood", mutant, man-killer falling in her lap must feel like a dream come true. I guarantee she has the ugly Dogo stashed somewhere else, and when it kills her, we will find out where. No way was she going to place that dog with someone else. No one else could possibly tame poor widdle pibble like she can. Freakin idiot.

Packhorse said...

Why doesn't anyone care about the senior Beagle, the leggy 2-year old Black Lab, or the 4 year old tabby cat sitting on death row today and every single day in shelters across the nation? Why all of these resources wasted for a dog used to MURDER someone? Don't animals who don't maim and kill people and other pets matter? For the life of me, I just don't understand it.

S.K.Y. said...

Thanks for linking so we could get the full back story on this case.

I agree with what everybody here is saying. How is the "rescuer" allowed to have so many dogs when most cities limit dogs to 2 or 3 per household? Have her neighbors complained, and has the city tried yet to take any action? Why is she allowed to claim 501c status when she doesn't have it? Isn't that a punishable offense?

And this woman has apparently had a criminal mindset since birth. Yep, I'm sure that hamster would have been in GREAT hands going with a thieving, lying, document-forging 5 year old rather than being cared for by the child's adult teacher...

[As an aside... At that age, I used to catch a grasshopper, ant or firefly, and build a cage for it and fill it with food, water, shelter, twigs, grass, etc. And by the next morning, my mom had always secretly set it loose in a biologically appropriate area, and left a "thank you" note in the cage, thanking me for the lovely hospitality at my "bug hotel." But even I would not have forged a note and tried to steal the class pet!]

Back to that Dogo, the dog is so out of control destructive, that that ALONE would have me giving him a dirt nap. What adopter deserves to be saddled with an indoor (or even outdoor) dog that destroys metal trash can lids and chairs to the point of damaging his own mouth and bleeding on them--and it still takes three people and a bucket of water to separate him from the victim? (Thank heavens I have an 8 lb. Papillon who can barely rip stitches out of a stuffed dog toy).

As Branwyne says--and I totally agree--how can "rescues" justify spending outrageous amounts of time and money (and FB pages) on destructive & dangerous dogs while friendly dogs are being euthanized in such large numbers? Every day, 8,000 dogs a day are being euthanized in shelters... Let's say that 2,000 of these are pits and 1/3 of the rest are aggressive or large/adult/unknown-tempered dogs. This still leaves 4,000 FRIENDLY and likely SAFE dogs being euthanized every day while people are wasting resources on this horrible Dogo Argentino.

For the money and time being spent on each dangerous dog, it's likely that homes could be found for half a dozen friendly dogs--who don't need so much "work" or PR to home them. Not only that, but adopters of GOOD dogs will come back and adopt FUTURE dogs from shelters. And their friends, neighbors and relatives will adopt from shelters because they see the nice dogs you can get there. For every DANGEROUS dog people adopt out, this ruins the chance for other dogs to be adopted, because the adopter and everybody they know will avoid shelters in the future because "only bad tempered dogs come from shelters."

I've seen this all the time with clients who got aggressive dogs (always from no-kill shelters). This sours them and their friends from ever adopting again. Their next dog is always a puppy from a breeder.

Dayna Hamilton said...

WOW! I've only just gotten through Part 1. Kathy Sutter is quite the psycho nutter. So many incredible contradictions in her descriptions. This one about Bones the dogo (who would like to chew on YOUR bones) stood out...
"This behavior was learned over years of time spent with his former owner and may take quite some time to change. As long as it is only objects in the yard and not other dogs or people. Its not all that scary…"

That's like saying, well the lion JUST ate and there are other creatures he would like to eat when he gets hungry again, as long as it's not you, it's not that bad...

Holy cow.

Packhorse said...

That's an excellent point SKY, about aggressive dogs turning people away from shelters/rescues. I always let people know I adopted my retriever from a rescue and recommend it to them, so they will understand normal dogs can be rescues too. Everyone loves him and he loves everybody, so he's great PR for normal rescued pets.

Dayna Hamilton said...

These "rescues" can't find their arses with both hands. And we're supposed to trust them with dangerous dogs? I am positive that all the PR is just going to bring in more donations for BOTH groups from the suckers out there who 'just want to help'...

Putme Incharge said...

S.K.Y. Said- "I've seen this all the time with clients who got aggressive dogs (always from no-kill shelters). This sours them and their friends from ever adopting again. Their next dog is always a puppy from a breeder."


At least there is a good side to this then. People SHOULD get their dogs from reputable breeders first and foremost in my opinion. Drying up the "rescues" of buyers would not give the backyard breeders such a great clearing house for their product.
(Every reputable breeder I know will take a dog back at any time in its life thus keeping it out of rescue)

Honestly I can not imagine why anyone-when choosing a pet that is going to be a huge part of your life for a decade or more- does not AUTOMATICALLY think they deserve a healthy dog from a reputable breeder. A dog with a known genetic background both in temperament and health.

I have owned plenty of peoples throw away dogs in my lifetime. I would guess that the majority of the 30 plus dogs I have had were second hand. (I live on a big property and folks used to just love dumping dogs out in the country, they would find their way to me and here they would stay.) However there is nothing like getting a quality puppy from a reputable breeder and raising it yourself.

Of course when you do that you can't ram it down other peoples throats that you are so much better because you "rescued" or "adopted" it.
Now that mindset would also make a good thesis topic.

Nothing surprises me anymore with people wanting to save everything no matter what.
Even dogs that murder humans.


Branwyne Finch said...

Exactly, SKY. I can't tell you how many people I have met who would never adopt from a shelter after seeing all their friends/neighbors/relatives bad experiences. I know folks who have returned dogs to rescue groups after a short period of time, because the dog started showing signs of aggression.

I met a nice neighborhood couple who had adopted a dog from a local rescue, and it was so fearful and aggressive, they had to return it...they then went and bought a dog from a back yard breeder, not knowing any better. This nice, older couple would have given a friendly shelter dog a wonderful home; now they will never consider adopting again.

These lunatics who are "saving" aggressive dogs are a big part of the reason people don't trust shelters as being a good place to get a family pet....their bizzare fetish for violent dogs has helped doom friendly, innocent shelter dogs to death by branding all rescues with the stigma of housing dangerous dogs.

Branwyne Finch said...

Putme, I do agree that a responsible breeder can be a great source for a dog. I also agree that the PC bullsh*t surrounding dog "rescue" is ridiculous....especially where I live, where shelters have waiting lists and many puppies and adoptable dogs are adopted before they can even be listed on Petfinder.

However, I think that, when a rescue actually does the right kind of temperament testing, people can find some real jewels in rescue....especially for those who want an older dog and not a puppy. A good rescue can be an excellent source for someone looking for a pet, but many people avoid them because of groups like the ones listed above.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Underdog rescue, "I tried to rescue my first animal in kindergarten... I tried to bring home the class hamster by writing a fake note from my parents"

She leads with this statement. She's proud of it.

Once we witness the crazy behavior from pit nutters, it is actually very consistent. About everyone here that read her FB caught it.

Pit bull advocates justify all the lying, threatening, and irrational behavior because it's "for the dogs". "For the dogs" is something a pit nutter told me to justify his near psychotic behavior. So to the average pit nutter, all is fair in love, war, and pit bulls (add Dogo Argintino and any other violent mossler breed). They will justify everything they do with this simple statement.

dawn james said...

"What's fascinating about all the fans at both of these rescue groups is that they are almost exclusively female. I just wonder if this is some sort of sub-culture within dog rescue, or a predominant culture. They remind me of the women who sent Drew Peterson marriage proposals while he was in prison. There seems to be this infantile, groupie dynamic going on, where all these women coo and gush about these dogs, calling them "sweet babies", etc."

you got that right. there are only a few books on the subject but only one worth reading. Women Who Love Men Who Kill. the similarities between these two fucked up groups of women are mind blowing.

here is the author being interviewed about these women.

shar pei mix said...

@Putme Incharge: Folks STILL just love dumping unwanted animals out in the country. Or parking lots. Or cul de sacs. Or apartment complexes. Or vacant buildings. Or behind shopping centers. Or in front of vets' offices after hours. Or even in front of animal control facilities after hours. :/

Almost everyone I know has at least one stray or abandoned pet that they've taken in & adopted. (None have ever been aggressive.)

It's a heartwarming feeling to give strays a good home & all of ours over the years have made fantastic pets. But it's a very sad feeling to have to take an abandoned animal to the shelter because somebody else dumped it and no one else has the room for any more.

And that's why I don't understand why anyone would go to the extremes of "rehabilitating" aggressive animals, unless it's really all about the sweet tax free $$$. I wish people who donate to those organizations would really think about all the other (safe and friendly) animals that are either abandoned and slowly starved or put to sleep at the shelters due to lack of space & funding. Sometimes humane decisions hurt and making the right decisions are really hard, but at least then you can rest easy knowing you did the right thing.


dawn james said...

i'm sure the money is a factor but i think this is more about the egos of the character disordered.

DubV said...

I posted this here a while back.

http://www.capitolhilltimes.com/2012/08/beauty-and-the-pitbull/

This is in relation to why some females are drawn to dangerous dogs. It might be similar to the bad boy preoccupation that also occurs in some.

DubV said...

Wow, I should have gone into research related to colonizing other planets, because things like this make me feel like a stranger in a strange land. Just the existential dread of sharing a planet with something like the Lexus Project....I'm sleep deprived so it is easy to go there.

Also, I can't imagine having a dog that I could unleash on someone and actually have him attack. Sure, a trained police dog or something similar, that's understandable. But any dog I've known well, if you command them to attack, no way they would do or even know what you meant by the command.

Dayna Hamilton said...

"Honestly I can not imagine why anyone-when choosing a pet that is going to be a huge part of your life for a decade or more- does not AUTOMATICALLY think they deserve a healthy dog from a reputable breeder. A dog with a known genetic background both in temperament and health."

Agree Putme Incharge! I adopted an off the track greyhound a little over a year ago. To me this is the best of both worlds; you get to feel good about 'rescue' and you get a known entity. The racing dogs have all been handled, led on a leash, well fed, good conformation. They may not know how to go up and down stairs at first, but they're very trainable. I'm a huge fan if you couldn't tell! Oh, and I second Miss Margo's anger at TLP using greyhounds on their facebook heading.. they don't deserve to have that breed of dog anywhere on their page. Greyhound rescue is a wonderfully organized and VALID rescue. I find it hard to believe TLP has ever had a greyhound.

DubV said...

I searched google news, it doesn't seem that any local news is covering this, unless I missed something on the scorchedearth blog entries.

Let me know if the news is on this, if not then I'll find some emails and give some anonymous tips to local reporters.

DubV said...

These dangerous dog rehabilitation "specialist" are actually denialist. When one of their number bites the dust via dog, it reminds me of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(magazine)

If you haven't heard of that magazine, what is stated on the wiki is real. It almost seems like dark comedy though.

snarky said...


"when one of their number bites the dust via dog " lol, should read ......via mutant . dogs that kill are an aberation and should be disposed of . theres absolutely no valid reason to endanger anything or anybody by saving mutant dogs that have shown their genetic propensity to kill humans or even other animals . send them to the happy killing ground for pitties .

orangedog said...

That Capitol Hill article is funny. Read the comments from the nutter brigade. They want everyone to "educate!" themselves with "real!" bite stats from the totally not a pittie propaganda NCRC. And then there was this comment: "There is an organization for vcitms of pitbulls and other aggressive dogs that will have an national event and also offers referrals to support groups. Google walk for victims of pitbull attacks."

They thumbed it down NINE TIMES.

Bunch of asshats.

scorched earth said...

DubV, see today's post, Part 4 of the series.

Who knew this would get so complicated????

tropical storms said...

On thug-dogs some pitiot was asking for help with his six months old pittie who has started growling and baring its teeth at him. No one suggested this was a potentially dangerous sign, they just chimed in about being a good pack leader. Un-freaking-real.

snarky said...


wtf fuck good is a wimpy thug-dog ? what kind of self-respecting douche bag wants a nanny / thug dog ? be the laughing stock of the gutter , ghetto or whatever. lol

snarky said...

unless the nanny dog killed , maimed or disfigured someone ....then of course it would become a poor misunderstood wiggle -butt gone wrong and could be rehabbed at great cost . funny how the great unwashed douchbaggery claims their mutants are harmless yet they wouldnt want them if they really were.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Scorched Earth, "Who knew this would get so complicated????"

It's pit bull drama. They thrive on this shit.

S.K.Y. said...

PutMeInCharge,

I adore a good breeder, and both of my current dogs (aged 10 and 1) are from show and dog sports breeders.

The main reason I have dogs from breeders is because I need an extremely high drive + perfect angles/joints/muscles to do elite level dog sports. I also love being able to contact them anytime I want (often daily) asking questions or comparing my dog's show wins with those of his relatives. And since I live alone, it's a huge plus that they will take back and rehome my dogs at any time if, for example, I die in an accident. (My sisters would happily take my dogs, but I would prefer the dogs go into competition homes with all the work I've put into them).

If I was a non-competitor looking for a pet, I would go for an adult dog from an open-admission shelter every time. I've adopted two myself, my sisters have three between them, and most of my friends also have shelter dogs or dogs from breed rescue. Every one of the dogs has an excellent temperament with humans, dogs and cats and has been super easy to train.

One sister adopted a 6 year old Border Collie who fit perfectly into their family (which has three young kids). The dog walks super on leash, learned a dozen tricks within a month, and has a gorgeous temperament. He comes over and offers his paws for nail clipping, comes instantly on the first command--even in the middle of chasing a squirrel (has always come, from the day they got him), is quiet and non-intrusive, but will retrieve for hours if somebody asks him to.

The thing I PREFER about adult dogs from rescues is that you can already see their structure and coat type, and more importantly, you can see EXACTLY what their temperament is. With puppies from breeders, it's always a gamble. You can meet the parents, try to choose the "right" puppy from the litter... but I've still ended up with some matches made in hell. For example, "calm" puppies that grew up (despite weekly training classes for 7+ years and competition obedience careers) to knock people down, break the dog-walker's wrist, bark non-stop at everything, etc. Or apparently friendly and well-socialized puppies that turned dog-aggressive the second they hit social maturity.

Another reason to adopt an adult shelter dog is that you can skip all the puppy nonsense. I think puppies are majorly over-rated, and I get my puppies as late in life as possible (I got my latest at nearly 6 months old). An adult dog is virtually always either house-trained, or has been living (and pottying) outdoors, and can therefore be moved indoors and house-trained in a matter of days. Also, they're normally past the puppy chewing stage (unless they're a Dogo named "Bones").

What I am trying to do is have about half of my lifetime dogs come from breeders, and adopt the other half. As an adult, I have bought 4 dogs from breeders, adopted 2 dogs from rescues, and fostered and found homes for 9 additional homeless dogs. I also fostered 23 Turkish street cats, of which I adopted 1 and found homes for 6. (The rest of the cats had their medical issues fixed, stayed in my apt. for weeks or months, were spayed/neutered/vaccinated and released where I found them with an insulated cat house and bed).

I'm particularly interested in taking in homeless senior dogs in the future. When my older dog eventually passes away, I think my next dog might be a senior Papillon... I feel so sorry for the poor 12+ year old dogs at shelters and rescues.

But Bones is welcome to be dirt-napped as soon as they find him. :-)

S.K.Y. said...

> I also love being able to contact them anytime I want (often daily)...

Oops. I was referring here to the breeders, not to the dogs. Ha ha!

Rumpelstiltskin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rumpelstiltskin said...

S.K.Y.

All 3 of my GSDs came from breeders. My first, the breeder chose the puppy for me. The other two I chose but not after many questions. I must say, you are right, temperament and drive is passed from the parents. I believe mostly from the father. My newest is exactly like his father. Very high drive and doesn't settle quickly. I was warned by the breeder and trainer.

It's not all in how you raise them. Part of a dogs training is dependent on his temperament and drives.

Quote from Scorched Earth blog:

"Bones had gone crazy and ripped the baby gate from their van and was spinning it the parking lot with it. Richard was trying to grab the gate from Bones, but was not having any luck."

WHAT THE FUCK? That dog is going to kill someone...oh wait, it already tried.

"When my transport met Richard and got Bones they did not have any trouble in fact I have pictures of him sitting in the back seat looking over the drivers shoulder."

Why anyone would not keep that dog contained while in transport is beyond me. What if it decided the driver's neck was a BABY GATE? It's already proven to be a man-killer, man-killer wanna be, mom-killer, whatever.

She has "pictures" of him to prove he's a "good dog". Probably posted all over FB. Doubt she posted pictures of the dog obsessively tearing apart a baby gate while someone begged him to stop.

"She then stated they were having a vet tech come out to sedate Bones for the trip."

Oh nice, have a VET TECH come out and sedate psycho dog.

I witnessed a partially sedated fear aggressive GSD bite a guy. It wasn't a nip either. That was a few years ago and never bit anyone since. The drugs may make an already touchy situation worse.

The rescue never heard of a fucking MUZZLE? I bet they don't own a muzzle or break stick. All these years in "pit bull business" and they don't have the proper fighting dog gear.

There is so much wrong with this saga, it's not even funny, just absurd.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

I forgot one more part.

"Bones had gone crazy and ripped the baby gate from their van and was spinning it the parking lot with it."

The man-killer was in a parking lot, most likely a public parking lot tearing apart a baby gate. Even in a private driveway Bones would have access to any human meat nearby.

So the dog was not muzzled or leashed. What idiots.

Sputnik2009 said...

I don't much like the idea of the only dogs we end up left with are 'pure bred' dogs from breeders. If you believe in that, you need to read 'Dogs' by the Coppingers (2001) and watch both parts of the BBC documentary on 'reputable' kennel club breeders.

Unfortunately, the pit bull plague is pushing us in that direction, if only because our lying shelters mean the only way to be sure a shelter dog isn't part pit is to get some pure-bred dog somewhere.

I prefer shelter dogs not because of coat structure, blah-blah, other consumerist views of dogs, but because one of these amazing living things called 'a normal dog' can have a home with me after being dumped by some idiot consumer.

Dear S.K.Y., it's the 'reputable' breeders creating dogs that "grew up (despite weekly training classes for 7+ years and competition obedience careers) to knock people down, break the dog-walker's wrist, bark non-stop at everything, etc. Or apparently friendly and well-socialized puppies that turned dog-aggressive the second they hit social maturity". I'm stuck with one myself now, a line-bred, 'reputable' breeder bred GSD. She's not aggressive, but has serious ADHD, also juvenile pancreatic atrophy and now probably an immune deficiency. I called the GSD kennel club about it, then the national kennel club, but they (and the breeder) don't give a fuck. No, they don't track that stuff, only hip dysplasia.

I have yet to adopt a mutt (my favorite breed) or even a (normal) dog mix that had this kind of problem even if it was raised perfectly from pup. Ditto mutt types I've worked with in shelters. In twenty years, only one case of heritable over-the-top ADHD in a non-line-bred dog. It's the 'reputable' breeders putting this kind of thing into even non-pit dogs.

My problematic GSD is a dump. The 'reputable' breeder couldn't find a buyer, so the dog was going to Bosnia police. The only reason I'd ever take a pup from a 'reputable' breeder, ie for the dog's sake.

Then there's another problem, namely the Millan and beat-them-down-dominate-them crew. A great many non-pit shelter dogs like the ones Branwyne mentioned have developed fear / defensive aggression problems because of this Leader and Dominance crap. Getting a dog from a 'reputable' breeder won't help a damn if you then proceed to raise it by these idiotic intimidation rules.

I want all pit bull type dogs to die out. I'd prefer it if they were all rounded up today and gently euthanized (grandfather clauses don't work). But meanwhile, I don't like seeing the pit problem exploited to push pedigree breeding. Also can't acquiesce in having normal shelter dogs blamed for the results of human dominance crap, as if the problem is in those normal shelter dogs. If our dominance crap has made a normal dog too dangerous, yes, we have to put it down. But it's bullshit to say the solution is to run to a breeder and get a line-bred dog.

vintage said...

GREAT PIT BULL PUBLIC SAFETY NOTES IN HISTORY:

The following Pit Rescues/Dangerous Dog Sanctuaries have had to move/close down due to financial and licensing issues. All have taken in Dangerously Declared Cash Cows:

Spindletop
Los Villo Lobos (twice!)
Mariahs Promise

Who is tracking the disposition of the maulers when they traffick to a new location?!?

*Disclaimer...You Can't Make This Stuff Up!

Branwyne Finch said...

Fascinating discussion, and I will say right now I don't have the answers.

If, as a country, we are able to achieve what the Northeast has, and pretty much reduce "normal dog" abandonment to a point where demand for pet dogs exceeds the supply of shelter dogs, where will people go for a pet dog? Right now, I see a lot of people in the suburbs going to bybers for "designer mixes". The high kill shelters down south are providing a steady supply of "normal" puppies and dogs...retriever and hound mixes, mostly. If the south and midwest were able to, through education or legislation, get their dog overpopulation under control, most people would turn to the internet and bybers on CL, etc. for puppies.

So the source for pet dogs would be either the "ethical" breeders, who at least are doing some genetic health screenings, or the idiots breeding labradoodles.

As I see it, one of the big problems with "ethical" breeders, is that their breeding goals may not be creating dogs that can actually live well and function as pets. Breeding for physical appearance only (conformation), or the ability to do a specific job (like the intense herding breeds) often doesn't produce a social, friendly, biddable family companion.

I have often thought it would be great for some group of breeders to "create" a land race breed of family pet dog. Using the most social and biddable breeds, perhaps mixing herding, sporting, and hounds. Instead of breeding for a specific conformation, color, or coat type, the dogs could be bred for a moderate size, friendliness, and biddability/intelligence. Through selective breeding, breeders could create a medium size dog, of various colors and coat types, that is reliably friendly, trainable, and less likely to end up abandoned due to behavioral issues. The breeders could still screen for genetic issues like hips, etc., but hopefully the gene pool would be broad enough that these dogs would remain relatively healthy. This would have to be a labor of love, and not a quest for profit.....I would want breeders to screen prospective owners, socialize and temperament test all the puppies, have a contract, and provide lifetime support for puppy buyers, including an agreement that they will take back the dog at any time.

The "goal" of the breeding program would be to create the ultimate family pet....smart, social, friendly, easy to train.

Just thinking out loud....this discussion is interesting.

Miss Margo said...

I like labradoodles...!

What has a labradoodle ever done to YOU?

Jesus...JUST KIDDING!

(mostly. I don't think there's anything wrong with doodles. Labs, poodles, what's not to like? I wouldn't pay $500 for one, though.)

I've had excellent experiences with shelter dogs, both of them mixes. Very sweet companion animals. Pepper wasn't too bright, but then whippets aren't exactly the einsteins of the dog world.

You can still find nice normal dogs in the shelter in my Western home state--my brother's friend got a setter mix there last year, and it's been a terrific family dog so far. It was already housebroken and could perform tricks and follow commands, everything. People give up their dogs for all sorts of reasons, not necessarily because the dogs are bad pets. In my home state, the economy sucks and there were tons of foreclosures...many animals lost their homes.

On the other hand, my other friend--an otherwise accomplished and sane individual--got a "lab mix" from the pound, and this dog is a total asshole. Yeah, it's that kind of "lab mix"--it's got pit in it, you can tell from the face and the chest. It is NOT friendly. I'm worried about her; the beast is huge...but I digress.

If I wanted to adopt a dog today in NYC, I think I'd be out of luck...the shelter system is chock full of pits. Normal dogs of every variety are taken almost as fast as they hit petfinder. I just did a search on NYC Animal Control's website...maybe 15 normal dogs out of 122 on the website now. AND THEY'RE SUCKING UP ALL THE RESOURCES!

Lol...cracks me up that the normal dogs are almost all adopted already, including a 9 yr old senior beagle mix...and the shelter staff has resorted to putting holiday reindeer horns on the pit bulls for photos...


I agree with Sharon that puppies are overrated. Gosh, they are adorable, but they are so much work.

Miss Margo said...

Should we start a betting pool about Bones and his wearabouts? Does anyone actually think he's running lose in the street?

Someone has to have him. A monster Dogo tied to a murder case? Come on! As snarky would say--the perfect dog for a self-respecting douchebag!

Miss Margo said...

Fun comment from the Toledo Blade story:

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/01/07/Dog-freed-in-murder-stolen-from-local-kennel.html

Samuel Mark Art · MARCY NY
THAT DOG SHOULD BE PUT TO SLEEP. THAT DOG HAS BIT 12 POEPLE THAT I KNOW OF FOR SURE ME, BEING ONE THEM. FOUR OF THE BITE VICTIMS ENDED IN SERIOUS INJURIES. I KNOW THIS DOG PERSONALLY AND WHAT IT IS CAPABLE OF AND, IF CERTIN THINGS HAPPEN IN FRONT OF IT WILL NO DOUGHTILY ATTACK AND BITE SOMEONE ELSE.
Reply · · January 11 at 9:41am

Putme Incharge said...

S.K.Y.

I think most folks that have
dealt with reputable breeders know that they will often have adults become available. I sure would send people that direction before ever suggesting a rescue.

This is a resource that people-not wanting to deal with puppyhood should be told about first and foremost.

Talk about getting a dog who has been there and done that. You sure know what it looks like and its coat.

Every reputable breeder I know will have adults become available, after they have the next generation.

I can think of one amazing dog right now, he is a Champion, he is the sire of last years Winners Dog at the breeds Nationals, has an amazing temperament, and drive out the wazoo- he could easily be a MACH. He is also only 4 years old. They are looking to place this dog since his son will carry on the bloodline. She does not want him to go to another breeder where he might languish in a kennel and just used as a stud dog, she would rather he be with a pet home, and hopefully someone who will do performance with him. I have loved this dog since he was born, but a female will be the next dog I add to my current mix.

At any rate people need to be made more aware that they can still get that quality adult without a lot of baggage from a reputable breeder.

As for Bones- I would bet the farm he's somewhere maybe having cute pictures taken of him posing with a baby and of course being walked around the neighborhood with a heavy duty chain as a leash.

DubV said...

I think dog choice comes down to your own value judgments and risk tolerances.

Dangling out on the extreme, you have the pitters, with their obviously strange values and high risk tolerances.

If you are very risk adverse, then a dog from a breeder that you know well and that has great genetics in terms of health and temperament is likely the best choice. People could encourage others to find these breeders, and to just not get a dog if they cannot or will not or can't afford it. It should be remembered that crafting those types of dogs is a labor of love and there is a relatively small quantity of people doing it. I'm not sure how much the pool of producers can expand to accommodate increased demand for these types of dogs, unless some societal shift occurred where everyone who will buy a dog had a pure bred dog like that and those great breeders became more common without being compromised (at least at their margins).

As the situation stands now, in shelters/rescues outside of major cities, we have a large reservoir or non-gripping dogs of unknown origins and often unknown mix. Like others here, I have had great experiences with these dogs on all fronts. My risk tolerance is not so high as to get a pit or even a large dog from a shelter, but I will adopt small to small-medium sized dogs that appear to have lovely temperaments. I see that as a gamble with an overall net expected payout. If the dog does become unstable, well a 25 lbs dog isn't likely to kill anyone or anything and I'll have it put down. So, the euthanasia will just be postponed (in a sense) by it being adopted for a bit. Usually, this won't happen and I'll end up with a wonderful pet that needed a home.

Around here, mutts are so common that no one brags about having saved a life, at least the people in my circles don't. I can see why a social climber that is afraid of being judged over their mutt might opine on their selflessness, but seeing through that sort of thing is its own reward.

orangedog said...

I'd bet the farm that the kooky rescue woman has him. A murderous Dogo must seem like a dream come true to the hamster-tamer. What is it with the Toledo Blade? Every comment is full of nutter-speak.

orangedog said...

ETA: Holy shit!!

"Bones ripped that suit off the wall and attacked it. After class, the trainer and I did some tests and he determined Bones had been trained to attack but not trained to release.
It was at this time, that I told Robin that Bones would probably never be adoptable because of the 4 pages of bite reports from New York and the attack training."

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Orangedog,

Yep, and Bones is allowed to run loose on the streets of Ohio. I think more than likely a pit nutter took him. Pit nutters get a hard -on for dogs that try to kill people. They thrive on that shit, even putting their own life at risk to get a hold of a killer dog.

I'd love to see a video of the "trainer's" evaluation. Just because Bones went after a bite suit doesn't mean someone trained him to attack. Bones attacked a baby gate, does that mean someone trained him as a pit bull nanny dog?

orangedog said...

Self-proclaimed animal angels tend to attribute all manner of behaviors to abuse or being trained as an attack dog. It's never pittie getting his groove on.

Miss Margo said...

"Self-proclaimed animal angels tend to attribute all manner of behaviors to abuse or being trained as an attack dog. It's never pittie getting his groove on."

I noticed that tendency--"He was abused! He was used as a bait dog! He was trained for dog fighting!"--and it irritates the hell out of me. All of those asinine comments on the Blade article (aside from the guy who says he was bitten by Bones), saying "I hope he's not being trained by dog fighters!"

Whatever.

What I want to know is: why does rescue loon have the padded suit, again? Is she training dogs to attack, or assessing them for violent tendencies, or what?

And despite the fact that Dogos are rare and (presumably) expensive, I'd bet that Bones has no formal training. It costs a lot of money to train a personal protection dog (or a lot of DISCIPLINE and patience if one does it oneself). Look at the dummy Bones was taken from. Disciplined, patient individuals don't usually brain their roommates with pipes.

Ugh...I'm trying to imagine living next to Bones in an apartment on East 62nd St...wowy wow wow....glad they were not my neighbors...



Putme Incharge said...

Miss Margo said"What I want to know is: why does rescue loon have the padded suit, again? Is she training dogs to attack, or assessing them for violent tendencies, or what?"

Ummm is it kind of like diving with sharks, you go in a Kevlar or chain mail suit?

Perhaps as well as a break stick the nutters should also walk around in the bite suit just to be safe.....

Freya L said...
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Freya L said...
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Freya L said...
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Rumpelstiltskin said...

Freya L,

There was a time when GSDs were frowned upon by many for their temperament and health issues. While there are inherent issues with some GSDs, the problems are a fraction of what they were 50 years ago.

This trend is due to the request of the general public and people within the GSD community. GSD breeders also accept that fact that temperament and health are passed on from offspring to offspring. The trend continues today.

In the pit nutter world, temperament which sets the "personality" of the dog at birth is a myth to be ignored and anyone who believes this fact is a "witch" and a "hater". Pit nutter ignorance and desire for a pit bull cash cow keeps the pit bull in the state we see it in today.

The pit nutters who do believe that temperament is passed down from generation to generation seek out the worst-of-the-worst pit bulls to breed. There are incidents of a litter of pit bull puppies attacking each other and any pit bull BY breeder knows this is the holy grail of pit bulls. Usually they don't become DA until 6 mos. to 3 yrs. Pit bull breeders would consider this prime breeding stock.

Pit bull breeders, I use that term loosely, will never learn.

Lastly, was Bones the Dogo fixed?

Rumpelstiltskin said...

From Yahoo Answers 2 yrs. ago:

Puppies that try to kill each other?

We have these two puppies and they fight like crazy. I've never seen anything like it. They try to kill each other! When I break them up (I know I'm not supposed to mess with fighting dogs) they have big cuts and bite marks all over them gushing blood. And my mamaw says they only do it when I'm around..but I doubt that's it. I don't think I'd be the cause of a stupid fight..they're half pit bull and half lab if that helps. Why do they fight like that? Is it normal for puppies to do it?

We've had them since they've been born. And they were in a litter.. they are around 2months old.

The "best answer":

Pit Bull's are dog aggressive. No amount of training will change that same goes for most Pit Bull mixes. DA show's around 6 months-2 yrs old sometimes earlier. They need to be separated. Crate and rotate or rehome one.

Yep, you read it, CRATE AND ROTATE! At 2 months old!

S.K.Y. said...

PutMeInCharge,

Thanks for pointing out an excellent source for a family pet and even competition dog, an adult rehome from a reputable breeder. I was actually going to mention this in my post, but I have a caveat that I'll write here.

For people that can recognize good breeders, generally people who show in conformation and/or other dog sports, there are almost always adult dogs there that are casually looking to be rehomed. An example is my Papillon's mom. The breeder limits herself to 4 dogs (all of which are used for occasional breeding), as she and her husband take the dogs everywhere, including back and forth between a house and a summer cabin. This breeder has been involved in showing this breed in obedience, agility and conformation for over 30 years and is a lifetime member of the PCA. She bred my dog's mom 3 times, and the puppies almost all earned breed championships, MACHs, etc. After my dog's litter went to their new homes, the breeder placed the mom with a very good friend of hers as a family pet. This is a 9 year old dog that will likely live to 16 and has had great care and socialization. The dog is house-broken, trained, and a perfect family pet.

I helped hook up a former co-worker with a 1-year old champion Brittany. The breeder had kept two littermates and showed them both to championships. She then picked the slightly better dog to keep for her breeding program, and placed the other dog with my friend. The dog was a young, house-trained, friendly show champion that is easy to groom and do nails, etc. And still plenty young enough to learn sports and have fun with. Plus, he's a beauty! And the dog cost her under half what it would cost to buy an ugly, puppy-mill-bred dog from a pet store.

In another example, my Border Collie's aunt was shown to her championship, then returned to the breeder after a divorce. A woman adopted the dog, trained her in obedience, and she became a perfect-200-scoring (first time in the ring!) OTCH dog who was High In Trial at the Border Collie National Specialty.

Now, here is the caveat. Two people that I told about this source of dogs did NOT know how to recognize a good breeder. One went to a breeder/vet whose dogs all lived in kennels and got almost no social interaction. She went there looking for an "retired show dog" and was instead sold a snaggle-toothed 5 year old dog that wants nothing to do with people (not aggressive, just stand-offish), won't touch toys, and eliminates all over the house despite repeated attempts to house-train her. This breeder/vet was not the ethical show breeder I'm referring to, but was a for-profit backyard breeder or even low-volume puppy mill. The guy was breeding solely for the pet market, and the dog he sold to her was simply a dog that had been too ugly and standoffish to sell as a puppy.

Another friend adopted an adult beagle from a show breeder. The dog had lived for 2-3 years in a high-rise in a crate-and-rotate situation. He knew nothing about how to live as part of a family, respond to commands, or walk on a leash. In this case, he had a friendly temperament and has turned out fine, but it took a lot of work on my friend's part.

Anyway, if you have a show/agility/obedience friend, that's a great way to network your way to people who might have adult "show retirees" of a breed you're interested in.

Branwyne Finch said...

Freya L, what the hell are YOU talking about? I am NOT talking about pit bulls, I am talking about adoptable, non-pitbull type dogs and puppies. I am NOT talking about dogs with aggression or serious behavior problems that are having trouble finding homes, very elderly or sick dogs. I am not talking about bully breeds.

I live in Mass and almost EVERY major rescue and shelter is importing dogs. Northeast Animal Shelter, Sterling Animal Shelter, Buddy Dog, Great Dog Rescue of New England, WARL....ALL of them are shipping in dogs from the South, Puerto Rico, or even the Carribean. That's off the top of my head. Same goes for many of the N.H. shelters. My vet has said it, my local AC has said it....we DON'T have a dog overpopulation problem in Mass. The Boston Globe has covered the "southern shelter transport" phenomenon in several articles. This is common knowledge and old news.

That doesn't mean adoptable dogs don't end up in shelters ....that will always be the case. But those dogs with good temperaments and no serious behavior problems get adopted rather quickly. Show me a litter of lab puppies in a shelter in Mass and I will GUARANTEE they came from the south, and I will further gurantee they will be adopted within a week of arriving at the shelter. If they weren't getting adopted right away, the shelters wouldn't be IMPORTING THEM.

The exception to this is, of course, pit bull type dogs,which flood shelters and rescues across the state, even though there is no pet market for them. Since most people don't want them, most insurance companies won't insure you with one, virtually no landlords will rent to you if you own one, and due to the very serious genetic temperament issues so many have, I don't consider them to be in the category of "adoptable" dogs.

snarky said...

uh oh, we got another knowitall dogoodin pitluver in our midst , lol. freya l goddess of fuck-ups and thug-dogs . wonder how long this one will last ?

april 29 said...

@ Freya L
"not many people like poodles"
Huh????
What planet do you live on?

Freya L said...
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DubV said...

Yeah the various sizes of poodle are very popular, and for good reason.

Freya kinda slipped in she is a pit owner in the midst of talking about dog breeding and such.

DubV said...

"Dumb ass I wasn't talking about pit bull type dogs. I was talking about all dogs in general."

Freya, Branwyne is probably twice as smart as you are. Seriously.

DubV said...

Freya,

To state that domesticated dogs are still SO MUCH like wolves and predators is to show that you don't know the first thing about dogs. Some pit nutters use this line of reasoning too.

Dogs were the first domesticated animal. They have been selectively bred to show some of the greatest physical diversity of all mammals (I think they are actually the most diverse). We have also drastically changed their behaviors, aside from appearance.

To call a tea cup yorkie, or most dogs really, a predator that is like a wolf is literally to babble incoherently and shows you are the last person to educate the regulars here or call anyone a dumb ass.

Freya L said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DubV said...

Personal anecdote I probably shared before, but it seems worth repeating.

A few years ago, I lived in a relatively large city in upstate NY. There were around 1/2 million people in it, if you count connected suburbs, and a relatively large inner city and poor population.

Even given that, when I went to every shelter within a 1 hour drive to find a small to medium size dog. ALL dogs of that description had adoption applications 6 to 8 people long.

I drove 8.5 hours south to my hometown and got my current dog immediately.

Freya L said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DubV said...

Freya,

Then "not many people like poodles" should have read "many people don't like poodles". Those two statements are quite different.

Freya L said...
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april 29 said...

We have a winner!!
The first pitter of the year, Freya L. Has all the answers. Not much different from pretty much every other pitter. Sure she understands her dog. Sure she controls her dog. Has done YEARS of research. Says she got her dog at a shelter but also says she knows ALL about how to find a reputable breeder. Your dog has no known background it is a stray or owner surrender, I'm glad you know just how dangerous it might be. Raw meat diet?? Your pit may be a "normal dog as far as you are concerned" but you are a pitter with a classic pitter opinions and vocabulary. Some people "just don’t like" YOUR kind of dog because we are PIT BULL VICTIMS. Rant on some other blog, no one is impressed here.

S.K.Y. said...

DubV,

I disagree. I think Branwyne is at least five times as smart as Freya L. For one thing, she is smart enough not to own a pit bull.

Freya L,

Regarding your assertion that "people don't know how to properly raise and train a dog," I agree totally. However, please explain why the Beagles, Bassets, Poodles, Papillons, Golden Retrievers, etc. being raised by these bad owners are NOT doing what pit bulls do. Namely: maul people daily, kill other pets daily, and kill a human every 9 days, on average (2012 stats).

The only breeds of dogs that should be allowed to live among humans are the ones that are bomb-proof enough to have a bad owner and STILL NOT KILL PEOPLE.

In addition, you are probably wrong about raw, and about the dog's digestive system being the same as the wolf's. And I say this as somebody who has fed raw on and off for 10 years, and still feed raw part-time. I currently feed a mix of grain-free kibble, prepared raw, and a bit of whatever I'm eating.

The very few raw feeding studies that have been done are split between "dogs can survive on it, though there's no evidence they do any better than on good kibble" and "dogs that experienced organ failure and even died after eating a whole-prey diet for just a few months." You can check out that study--it's one of the sources in the Wiki article on raw feeding.

There's also increasing evidence that dogs have co-evolved with humans for well over 25,000 years, which is ample time for their digestion to evolve. I lived in the developing world and did my master's thesis on feral dogs. I guarantee that dogs over those 25k years were NOT being fed (valuable/rare) meat, nor hunting for their own (because predatory dogs would have killed village livestock as well). Based on our knowledge of pariah dogs today, they were almost certainly eating a large amount of human feces and scraps such as peels, cores, picked-over bones, etc.

Anecdotally, if you hang out on any raw feeding forum, raw fed dogs have more health issues than any kibble fed dogs I've ever met. I mean, virtually every dog on the list is undergoing kidney failure, has cancer, is throwing up daily, is constipated, or has diarrhea. These are nearly always issues that started AFTER the change to raw. Yet the advice of everybody on the list is to "stick with it," "raw cures all woes," "it's the toxins leaving the body," etc. It's the same thing you see on vegan websites for humans. The vegans get more and more protein starved and lose energy. And it's all justified as "toxins leaving the body."

When I've asked on the forums about longevity of dogs on raw, most of the responses were like this: "Unfortunately, my dog was already sick because I fed him kibble the first 4 years of his life, and so his body was loaded with toxins. So even though I switched him to raw, he still died at the age of 7. But I know raw gave him an extra year that he wouldn't have had if he'd stayed on kibble!"

I expected to find all kinds of people bragging about their 16, 17 or 18 year old dogs, but nobody on the forum seemed to have any dogs live past 14, which is less than my kibble-fed dogs all lived.

I will no longer feed a 100% kibble diet, and I won't feed a 100% raw diet, either. I think the safest way, pending additional research, is to hedge one's bets and mix up the diet.

And Freya L, I don't expect to change your liddle pibble-loving mind about raw or anything else. The information above is for the other people that read this blog, nearly all of which are sane people with normal breeds of dog.

DubV said...
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Freya L said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Freya L said...

“Regarding your assertion that "people don't know how to properly raise and train a dog," I agree totally. However, please explain why the Beagles, Bassets, Poodles, Papillons, Golden Retrievers, etc. being raised by these bad owners are NOT doing what pit bulls do. Namely: maul people daily, kill other pets daily, and kill a human every 9 days, on average (2012 stats).”
Because of breeders breeding them to be that way.

DubV said...
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DubV said...
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Jim said...

Dogs are not obligate carnivores and they are scavengers/opportunistic feeders not predators.

There is no such thing as an "old fashioned straight back GSD," those are back yard breeder/puppy mill terms.

A properly structured GSD has a straight back that slopes from withers to croup when the dog is in the stack (which is a slight exaggeration of a stance a properly constructed GSD will walk into prior to and after it trots) and this is the result of proper angulation of the rear. Without that angulation the dog cannot sustain the flying trot it must be able to assume and sustain to do its work. GSDs are a tending breed, think of them as a moving fence with teeth, and need an efficient gait to do the work without fatiguing. That slope to the top line while at work is indicative of such an ability and has fuck all to do with bad hips.

But please.. continue to lecture us with your bull shit while posing as an expert because you rescued a pibble....

DubV said...

"Than explain to me why they are SO MUCH like a wolf they are capable of breeding a dog and wolf together and those animals are capable of having offspring that is fertile. Do a little research."

Similar to a wolf is a relative thing. I'll admit that you can look at dogs and know they are canids, like wolves. They are more like wolves than they are like cats. Okay, I'll give you that. But you can't use "they are so much like wolves" as a premise in an argument when they vary in SO many ways that matter so much to a domestic living situation.

The fact that two individuals can interbreed does NOT necessarily infer that they are close in behavior or even appearance. It only means that they are compatible on the gametic level. So, that is not an argument you can use.

Ever heard of wild cabbage? Surprisingly, the hand of man has taken a single species and created several subspecies from it. Would you believe me if I told you that cabbage, brussels sprouts, kale, and broccoli are all the same species? Just like wolves and domestic dogs are the same species but different subspecies. It is very important to note that the wild cabbage plant (which looks nothing like the cabbage you eat) became all those things that are quite different because humans picked traits they wanted and amplified them via selection at a rate that nature alone cannot usually manage.

Do you also know that you likely could interbred with a neanderthal if they were still around? Man, try having one of those folks over for tea and crumpets though.

The reason that mules and horses can breed but their offspring are infertile is that they are different species.


Now, just because two things are compatible at the gametic level does not mean that they have not been genetically altered at very important sites that change how they look and behave VERY drastically.

How much change is need in some DNA here and there in order to create LARGE differences? Any idea how similar to chimps us humans are in a genetic sense? Over 96% of our genetics is the same. If two chimp chromosomes hadn't fused along the way to human development, I wouldn't be surprised if we could interbreed. The differing chromosome number prevents it. But if you consider the fused chimp chromosomes as the correct single chromosomes in humans, you see the 96% similarity.

I'll keep doing some research though, as you suggested. It seems you are able to inform me on matters related to the study of life

DubV said...

Freya,

Are you aware that folks have tried, in experimental settings, to raise wolf puppies as you would a dog in a home environment?...it didn't work out so well.

S.K.Y. said...

>Such as diet and certain facts like they are carnivores and they are predators.

Nope. Their biology points to them being omnivores, just like humans. And just like all or most canids.

>No one would deny the fact that a domesticated cat still hunts mice and has a predatory instinct like a wild cat.

I would. I had a free-range small parrot and frequently fostered wild birds... and still managed to simultaneously foster a string of 23 feral Turkish street kittens/cats without any problems. None of the cats ever had the slightest interest in the birds. Similarly, when I was in college, I had a trained pet rat, and he used to hang out with my friend's cat. In fact, I have only once in my life witnessed a cat acting predatory. A street cat who had a blackbird in his mouth. I got the bird, took it to the vet, and I was later able to release it. I lived in a place where I walked past hundreds of street cats a day, yet never saw any of them going after a mouse, rat or bird other than that one incident.

Back to the main topic: You are acting like pit bull violence is just a normal, everyday part of being a dog. Or a wolf. If you knew as much about biology as you claimed, you would realize that wolves and SANE dogs bend over backwards trying to avoid overt violence. This is very different from pit bulls, who are 16 times more likely to escape confinement than normal dogs. And why do they want to escape confinement? So they can attack and try to kill innocent men, women, kids, dogs, cats and livestock.

There are about 400 breeds of dogs on earth, and only a handful of the bull breeds, which do 80% of the damage to people and other dogs. We have hundreds of breeds that are NOT predatory "wolves" waiting to take down and devour a toddler. How about you pit bull owners choose from the 399 or so breeds that are NOT killing a human every 9 days in the U.S.?

It is criminally irresponsible for anybody ("good" owner or not) to harbor a dog breed that has been bred for 150 years to kill people and other dogs, to ignore friendly or calming signals from other dogs, to continue fighting even when the other person/animal has given up, become permanently disabled, lost a limb/scalp/nose/face, or been killed.

>I can feed my dog a raw diet and know that it is the healthiest thing that he can eat because it is the natural diet of his ancestors and his digestive system is the same as theirs.

I HIGHLY recommend you read the book "Catching Fire," by my old professor, Richard Wrangham. He cites numerous studies pointing to cooked foods having vastly superior nutrition to raw. In feeding studies, humans and all animals that were tested preferred the cooked food to raw. The human invention of cooking is responsible in a large part for our fast spread and high rate of success compared to many other mammal species.

DubV said...

Freya in brackets, me outside them.....

[People like to make it seem like dogs “know” things and give them human emotions and attributes.]

Dogs don't know things? Perhaps I am interpreting you too literally. Dogs know a lot of things (couldn't survive unless they did), have their own set of emotions, and are somewhat adept at interpreting human emotional states.

[The reality is a dog may not be a WILD animal but it is an ANIMAL. It doesn’t matter if it’s a teacup yorkie or a GSD. They still are animals with certain instincts and such.]

Dogs and humans are both animals. We are in kingdom animalia, along with dogs and the annoying stink bugs trying to crawl in my windows during this warm spell.

[I do put a lot of trust in the fact that dogs are enough like a wolf that I can feed my dog a raw diet and know that it is the healthiest thing that he can eat because it is the natural diet of his ancestors and his digestive system is the same as theirs.]

Similarity in digestive system does not imply similarity in outward appearance or behavior. This is assuming you are correct, I haven't looked into it.

[As for behavior and instincts, I don’t take for granted the fact that dogs chose to accept humans in their lives."]

No, the mean proto-dogs were killed or ran off from the edge of pre-historic human settlements. What were left became breeding stock. It was a mutual exploitation however. An alien species might think my dog runs my life. I pick up his poop and carry it around on walks and feed him. If I believed in reincarnation, I'd like to come back as Wesley for many lifetimes.

DubV said...

I feel a bit bad, maybe I am getting soft in my dotage.

Freya followed the typical nutter pattern [attempt to educate us>have their ass handed to you (usually without realizing it)>delete all comments], but she seemed nicer than most and rather sincere.

snarky said...


how long till freya doggess gets her panties in a twist and flounces off back to pit- bull positive ? or somewhere. they all come , try to feed us regurgitated b.s. , get their egos hammered and go off in a tizzy , never fails , like clockwork orange , highly amusing

Freya L said...

I just want to let you all know I deleted my comments because I honestly feel like there is no point in continuing this. I apologize for bothering you all.

As far as the raw diet thing. I’m constantly searching for answers about what to feed my dog. If you feed raw I don’t see why you would attack me for it. Would you eat kibble? Well I don’t feel like it’s a natural or normal diet and I’m not going to feed my dog something I wouldn’t eat myself, obviously not raw. They’re not omnivores.

http://liziangel.blogspot.com/2012/01/feeding-for-health-and-longevity-raw-vs.html

“The number and types of teeth reflect those of a ‘mesocarnivore’. The earliest Carnivora family of Miacidae, of which Miacis, the earliest known ancestor of the domestic dog was a member, were mesocarnivores. Modern day mesocarnivores include wolves, coyotes, foxes, civets and skunks, as well as dogs.”

That’s coming from someone that doesn’t even feed a raw diet and had problems with it.

Anyways, I wish you all the best and for those that own dogs I wish your dog a long, healthy, and happy life as well.

DubV said...

White-tailed deer eat baby birds and fish washed up on the shores of lakes.

Their dental pattern does not indicate this.

Again, I appreciated your input in the comments, Freya. It was a bit fun. You are nicer than most.

DubV said...

"how long till freya doggess gets her panties in a twist and flounces off back to pit- bull positive ? or somewhere. they all come , try to feed us regurgitated b.s. , get their egos hammered and go off in a tizzy , never fails , like clockwork orange , highly amusing"


It's almost like a highly intelligent blogger like Dawn would draw regulars with similar qualities.....hmmm.......

I risk egotism like that because I must in order to teach freshmen everyday and be confident and maintain my sanity.

Freya L said...

“lived in the developing world and did my master's thesis on feral dogs. I guarantee that dogs over those 25k years were NOT being fed (valuable/rare) meat, nor hunting for their own (because predatory dogs would have killed village livestock as well).”
Oh and my boyfriend who is from Egypt would like you to know that he grew up in Egypt and the butchers there would feed the feral dogs raw meat, beef. There was a dog there that lived to be 20 years old that was fed raw. He used to feed his two GSDS and two Dobies raw and that’s what everyone feeds there dogs over there because there is no kibble over there except maybe in the Americanized areas or places for tourist.
Also, the feral dogs there would kill chickens and they round up dogs over there by the hundreds and shoot them and burn them because they’re such a problem.

DubV said...

Incoming "educators" don't realize the several year trajectory of this blog in hosting them. It is not totally their fault in this.

It is difficult to give positive criticism sometimes. Online, I typically go for compact criticism that gets the point across. It isn't always constructive because, usually, there is no attempt by them to build off said criticism as if it could be constructive.

DubV said...

Raw meat infers no cooking right? I can see where a meat-based diet would be good for a dog, but I am less sure on why you wouldn't cook it at least a bit (even from raw to rare). That's because the heat kills many pathogens in the meat. It may influence other things which I'm not aware of though.

All I know is I've feed my dog good quality dry food and he has throw up 3 times in 6 year and never had the runs, and looks quite strapping and gets letter A vet reports. I do put a bit of cooked meats on his bag food, especially around holidays.

snarky said...


why do they always delete their comments ? whats the psychological mechanism dub v?

Rumpelstiltskin said...

We've been relatively civil to Freya. The pit nutters are usually not civil.

Pit bulls will kill an entire herd of sheep and not eat one bite. Maybe inadvertently swallow some sheep's blood or a sliver of meat. Never heard of a wolf killing a heard of sheep then running off back to its den.

It seems Freya got an EDUCATION in pit bulls! LOLOL! Pit nutters hate being educated.

I really think the pit nutters that post here think we are a group of bitchy dullards. Then they get educated. Those ignorant pit nutters.

S.K.Y.

I alternate between kibble and raw. 2 days kibble 1 meal raw.

They really love real meat. My instincts says there's value in the scientifically prepared oven roasted dog food that they would never receive from raw. Thanks for explaining.

snarky said...


dont get sucked in ,dubv , freya L doggess is like a sweet pitbull , licking your hand one minute , then quickly at your throat before you know it. shes not to be trusted , shes a pitbull bitch an deyr du worst of a bad bunch.

DubV said...

"why do they always delete their comments ? whats the psychological mechanism dub v?"

No idea snarky, but I can always speculate. It seems some get embarrassed on some level. Others just don't want their comments to be of use to use later as we attack their nanny dogs. That's why I like to copy and paste certain portions of what they say into comments I make later.

DubV said...

"Pit bulls will kill an entire herd of sheep and not eat one bite"

Good point. Actual predators do not do this.

S.K.Y. said...

Freya L,

I recently moved back after 5 years in Turkey. My best friend for four of those years moved to Egypt and married her Egyptian boyfriend (now hubby), and we frequently discuss the stray animal situation in both countries.

In Turkey, people put out cat kibble for the street cats. For some reason I can't understand, the street dogs never seem to touch this kibble. (My own dogs adore cat kibble).

For the street dogs, they put out moldy or stale bread. As you mentioned about Egypt, some butchers will also put out scraps of meat/bones. However, these are not hunks of beef, but things like rib bones with virtually every useable bit taken off. At best, the dogs can lick a few particles off each bone.

Butchers and neighborhood residents will also often put out completely spoiled stuff, like rancid chicken skin that's been accumulating in their trash can for days at 85F or equally rancid bowls of yogurt, or congealed sour milk.

Many dog owners, particularly villagers, feed their dogs nothing but stale bread soaked in old congealed milk. This is what nearly all Kangals eat, and these are the 120+ lb. sheep guarding dogs that are the pride of the Turks.

Shelters in Turkey also feed dogs a diet consisting almost entirely of moldy or stale bread, sometimes soaked in rancid restaurant slop of the type that American farmers might feed to pigs.

And most Turkish street dogs would be lucky to live to age 3. The oldest one I knew of was around 8-10 years old. (They have a hard life for other reasons besides nutrition--many have old broken bone injuries, arthritis from sleeping and walking on pavement, etc.)

Yet if you asked a Turk, they would fondly remember their neighborhood butcher "putting out meat for the neighborhood dogs." People like to think of their countrymen as generous. However, from a purely objective viewpoint, even the dog-friendly butchers are not giving even a few pennies of useable meat to the dogs--just stuff that would go into the trash. (And this is a country where people pay high prices for lamb brains, cow tongues, chicken feet, tripe, etc.--that's definitely not going on the sidewalk for the stray dogs).

And even these few scraps from the butcher shop is a new phenomenon that began in the 20th century. Even as late as the 1980's, the average person in Latin America consumed less meat per day than the average U.S. house cat. I lived in Costa Rica in the 90's, and meat was such a luxury that you'd only get a few particles mixed into something like rice or mashed potatoes once a week or so. The grand prize for the winning bull rider at the local rodeos was a single cooked chicken. So nobody is giving meat to dogs.

I studied feral and owned-but-free-ranging village dogs while in C.R. I can't recall anybody ever giving them any meat except for the picked over bones from a chicken wing or something. They lived off of bread scraps and sour milk, just like many of the dogs in Turkey.

As an aside, the (then) world-famous author, collie exhibitor and AKC judge, Albert Payson Terhune, had a kennel of champion collies just before WWI. What did he feed them? Mainly bread and milk, with an occasional dash of meat scraps or bones. I think this is reflective of the omnivore diet that people have almost always given dogs. His dogs lived regularly to 15-16 years old on this diet.

dawn james said...

wolves are carnivores, dogs are omnivorous scavengers - like most bears.

dogs evolved eating human scraps.

Branwyne Finch said...

Wow...someone called me a dumbass and I missed it!

I'll second what SKY said about the aboriginal pariah dogs of third world countries....I met a guy who owns a few, he works with a vet who brings them over from India.

Freya, aboriginal pariah dogs are actually a landrace "breed", if you will...there have been many studies done on them, and all the research shows that these dogs...kind of the prototype for our domestic pet dogs...are EXTREMELY non-aggressive; they use ritualisitic aggressive displays to avoid REAL physical conflict. They are peaceful animals. There has been strong selective pressure on these dogs to evolve as peaceful animals; since they weren't owned pets, villagers had no issues killing one who posed any sort of perceived risk to their families or livestock.

The problems with "feral street dogs" killing chickens that you describe is the result of people introducing european dogs into these areas, and abandoning them. These dogs then become feral street dogs, and even breed with the pariah dogs. It was MAN who created aggressive dog breeds, and it was MAN who perverted the natural inclinations of these peaceful, social scavengers, who do everything they can to AVOID conflict with other dogs and people.

There are groups dedicated to the preservation of pariah dogs, and they recognize the problems created by the european strays. Sadly, these peaceful creatures end up paying the price for european stray dogs acts of aggression.

Miss Margo said...

Wow, I turn my back for one minute and look what happens!

Freya followed us here from the new guy's blog "Maul Talk." She was lecturing him in a similar tedious fashion in the comments of his "Irish Carbomb" post.

Besides the know-it-all demeanor, she is comparatively nice for a nutter. I wish that was more complimentary, given the competition (Ryan nutter, Star, FUzupf).

The comment-delete trend really is the damndest thing. I concur with DubV: they (eventually) recognize that they're outgunned and get embarrassed. Reminds me of a Beltway saying: "If you try and don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried."

Consider, for example, Jim's info about the function of back "slope" in GSDs and Sharon's 'I did my Thesis on feral dogs!'.

I love this place!

DubV: FRESHMEN!!! Do they wear flip-flops and Spongebob Squarepants pajamas to your classroom, too? I just got a new teaching gig at a hopelessly irrelevant CC. It pays me, like, $0.74/hour. ACADEMIA!!!

Miss Margo said...

P.S. Dogs are like wolves and don't consent to live with people...are you kidding me. We have the ultimate symbiotic relationship, though of course humans have the, ahh, upper hand.

Almost no dog could hack it in the wild. Even in a lush area with no coyotes. And pit bulls sure as hell couldn't make it without humans because they'd KILL EACH OTHER.

(Anecdotal, but: I saw my whippet catch a wild hare once. She didn't know what to do with it. Let it go.)

And most dogs do just fine on kibble. The government regulates it, you know...it's not junk like canine french fries. If humans were fed a human-diet equivalent (soylent green? nutraloaf?), we could end obesity.

orangedog said...

Dammit you guys, you need to learn to quote the nutters before they delete their posts. I missed all the fun. Freya needs to read Alexandra's book. A dog is like a wolf in the same way a horse is like a donkey - same family, can interbreed. Dogs aren't predators in the sense that they would spend a lot of energy hunting for their food all the time. They evolved as scavengers.
That said, I do feed raw. I also feed cooked and kibble and canned. My dog actually enjoys variety and he's looking good as a senior.

Branwyne Finch said...

I actually want to ask Freya a question, before she takes her leave. Freya, you are obviously bothered by bloggers who portray pit bull owners negatively. I think you feel you are a good person, and you want us to know that "not all pit bull owners are bad". That's the sense I am getting.

So why do you own a breed of dog that draws so much negative attention to you? And why on earth would a nice person own a dog breed that could pose a threat to his neighbor's dogs? You have admitted that you understand that dog aggression is a breed trait...I read your exchange with Meals-on-Wheels on her blog.

I could NEVER bring a potentially dangerous dog breed into my neighborhood, and violate my neighbors trust and sense of well being. There are elderly people who walk their small dogs down my street, and these dogs ARE THEIR WORLD....they are their lifeline. The thought that I could shatter their peace of mind by bringing a pit bull home, or, worse still, could make ONE mistake where my pit bull gets loose and kils or maims their dog...that is against my moral code. That is a risk not worth taking, and it defies my sense of human decency.

There are children who walk their family dog up and down my street...how devastating would it be for me if a child was injured protecting her dog from my pit bull? Being a "responsible pit bull owner", does not make you infallible. Even responsible people make mistakes. I make mistakes. We all do. How could I live with my self knowing I deliberately chose a breed created to kill other dogs, forgot ONE DAY to lock a gate, and put a child in the hospital?

Why own a breed that people fear? I noticed you signed off on MOW blog once with "Blessed Be". Are you Wiccan? Do you believe that the energy you put out into the universe comes back three fold? Then why choose a dog breed that is number one for killing children and other dogs as a "pet"? Does it make you feel powerful? Why would you want a dog that symbolizes the violent, negative energy of the criminals and sadists who created the breed?

What are you putting out into the universe, Freya? When you come and read these blogs, you can see that it's coming back to you threefold, isn't it? As many of us have listened to pit bull owners we know IRL wax poetic about how wonderful their pit bull is, only to find out later that it killed another dog, attacked a person, etc. Why should we believe that you and your dog are any different?

Freya, you made choice when you "rescued" your pit bull...you chose a potentially dangerous dog. Understand that somewhere out there...maybe even in the kennel next to where your pit bull sat....was a perfectly sweet, friendly, nondescript little mutt who would never pose any threat to any person or dog, and who could have provided years of non-dramatic, happy companionship to you.

Ask yourself why you chose the dangerous breed, the breed you have to take all these "precautions" with, the breed that you can never fully trust around other dogs, the breed that makes people cross the street when you walk it....the breed most closely associated with criminal activity, animal abuse, and dead children.

And think about the energy you put out into the world, Freya....and don't be surpirsed at what comes back to you.

Miss Margo said...

last thing

Sharon: fascinating info about what stray dogs in CR and Turkey eat.

FWIW, I went on a (legal) trip to Cuba five years ago. Havana and Santiago.

I got around quite a bit, and I didn't see any starving people, but let's just say...you could eat whatever you wanted, as long as it was rice and beans and some sort of fish (rum and cigs too, lol).

Almost no bread or pastry, btw.

I didn't come across any beef and pork was very rare. Chicken was special-occasion.

Havana was FULL OF STRAY DOGS!

No pits. Mostly little furry dogs. And they were sweet; I'll never forget a little white one that followed me back to my hotel. Oh I wanted to scoop him up and take him home with me.

What they ate, I have no idea, because there was no abundance of food. But they found something.

Yeah..."wolves."

dawn james said...

freya is a bit of a blow hard.

Freya L said...
"Freya L, what the hell are YOU talking about? I am NOT talking about pit bulls; I am talking about adoptable, non-pit bull type dogs and puppies."
Dumb ass I wasn't talking about pit bull type dogs. I was
talking about all dogs in general. Thanks for ASSuming you actually know what the hell I was talking about when you obviously would rather just jump to conclusions.
Snarky, STFU and actually read my post. Other than the fact that I own a pit bull type dog that I got at a shelter I've spent years researching about dogs. Hence the fact I'm smart enough to know enough to feed a dog a proper diet of raw meat since they have the same digestive system as a wolf.
Hence the fact I'm smart enough to know what to look for in a reputable breeder rather than just going out to a pet store or to any BYB in the area. The only difference between what I said and practically everyone else on here is the fact I own a pit bull. Get your head out of your ass.
If anything I know what a problem pit bull breeding is and
what a problem it causes in the world and why it's led to so many deaths of innocent people. It's called genetics and
environment. People don't know how to breed a dog for a
good temperament and people don't know how to properly raise and train a dog.
Like I said on the other blog. If you think a dog is like a goat and you have the IQ of a gold fish than don't own one. They predators with the instinct to kill animals to survive.
Domesticated or not they're still so much like a wolf that they can be bred with one and have fertile offspring. I'm not some idiot nutter that thinks my dog is a little wiggle butt that can't kill. If he ever showed signs of aggression he would have a bullet in his head. Since he's a perfectly "normal" dog as far as I'm concerned and since I've taking the time and the years to make sure he was brought up in the proper environment and not unleashed on the unsuspecting public. I'm not part of the fucking problem. Is it clicking in your little head yet??

Miss Margo said...

o "why do you own a breed of dog that draws so much negative attention to you? And why on earth would a nice person own a dog breed that could pose a threat to his neighbor's dogs?"

That's the question, Branwyne. That's the crux of the matter, right there.

That's why the pit bull phenomenon is so outrageous and fascinating. And deplorable.

orangedog said...

I just read part 5 of the Bones saga. You all should check out some of the other dogs this "behaviorist" has in her care - particularly Sylvia. I notice she's totally into dominance theory which has been shot full of holes time and time again and should be well and truly buried by now if not for a certain showboating TV dog trainer.

orangedog said...

"why do you own a breed of dog that draws so much negative attention to you? And why on earth would a nice person own a dog breed that could pose a threat to his neighbor's dogs?"

Some people get them because they buy into the pit propaganda machine and truly think Mr. Wiggle-butt is misunderstood. I had to talk my sister-in-law out of rescuing one. She felt sorry for all the pitties on Petfinder. She's a really nice person, just too trusting. I told her if she got one that it would never be welcome at my house and that I wouldn't set foot in hers while she had it.

dawn james said...

regarding the diet and digestive systems of wolves and dogs, prove it. dogs evolved eating our scraps of COOKED meat. i have spent a lot time researching wolves in general and how to feed the domestic dog after the chinese melamine scandal.

first of all, the life of a wolf is brutal. they are susceptible to all of the viruses and parasites that dogs are. they are vulnerable to injury from prey. and just because they often go for days between meals, doesn't mean it is healthy. eating once a week and then gorging on food is not healthy for any animal. wolves do not do this by choice. the owner of a fancy pet food store who promoted raw diets, actually told me that we should be feeding dogs exactly like wolves, feeding raw and not daily. WTF? i am surprised he didn't recommend feeding them live animals. one of the idiots he employed tried pushing an expensive kibble on me, timber wolf i think. she handed me a brochure (which i read, unlike her) then she proceeded to misquote the contenta of that brochure. "wolves first eat the stomach contents". hello? the brochure (like the books i have read on wolves) clearly states that wolves will never eat the stomach contents unless they absolutely have to. they eat almost exclusively muscle meat. i swear, she had to be a pit nutter.

second of all, people don't realize that dogs are susceptible to food born illness and so are their humans if they are not careful. i knew a woman who contracted a food born illness from feeding her dogs raw.

to sum it up, i would say yes freya, please keep feeding your pit bull raw meat.

orangedog said...

Timberwolf is pretty good stuff in that is has more protein and fewer carbs that tend to make pets fat. Obesity is killing dogs almost as fast as Pitties can.

dawn james said...

i supplement my dogs' diet with a small amount of premium grain free kibble made in the US (organix in portland oregon). but i cook for them: mainly eggs & chickens and barley occasionally sheep, cows or turkeys. they often eat what i eat, yogurt, scones, spaghetti, stew, oatmeal, grilled cheese. i am pretty disgusted with the pet food industry.

snarky said...


FREYA L pitbull doggess sez :

i eat cravenites for breakfast , i like them raw, kick n screaming. and their poodles for afters.

Putme Incharge said...

Son of a gun, I am away for a short time and I apparently missed a lot.

I hate when they delete their comments.

As usual you guys impress me with your responses.

I can not tell you how much I appreciate all of you.

The Bones saga is so disturbing because we all know he is out there somewhere and from reading that update today he is as dangerous as a dog could be.

As for FREYA, what I saw of her remaining comments, it made me immediately think of a comment I read in a UK Mail article regarding the Grandmother who was killed by the pit bull last week.

I also have to mention that of course the moron from the humane society decided the dog killed the grandmother because it was "protecting" the children.

Here is the comment that really caught my eye. First they are telling me pibbles are perfect pet, but then we have a clause that they have to be supervised at all times when around everyone else.......

Please note also that they believe they have "common sense"....someone needs a reality check

From the UK Mail Comment section-

"This is indeed tragic. I love pit bulls, they are wonderful dogs. They are very protective of their family members, especially children. But, they should always be safely contained when their adult masters are not present. A babysitter, even if the dog knows them well, is never fully in charge of a house containing a Pit bull. You never know what a dog will consider as a threat. Even with the most calm, loving and adoring Pit bull, reprimanding a child could turn deadly in an instant. Assure the health and safety of both dog and sitter, contain your Pit bull before you leave....
- Common Sense , US, 11/1/2013 16:03"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2260430/Grandmother-13-mauled-death-pet-pit-bull-babysitting-young-grandkids-witnessed-bloody-attack.html

Oh yeah, thats something I want living in my house.



snarky said...


B.f. talks about seniors and their beloved dogs and while im not quite senior yet, im getting there and i sure relate to them better than the irish carbombs and the freyas. one thing ive learned over the last two years is that most pitters couldnt give a toss about the people and pets they hurt. and yes i know of lonely elderly people who have lost beloved pets to pits and pitters . ive know people injured themselves and looking after their injured dog at the same time . ive known little dogs attacked and never the same afterwards . ...... but ive never known pitters to be really sorry about any of this .

Branwyne Finch said...

I think it's tragic that an entire generation is growing up with a warped sense of what a dog actually IS...or should be.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of these pit bull owners who consider themselves dog experts are YOUNG. For those of you who grew up in the 60's and 70's with dogs, LOL....I am imagining someone telling my mother that, under no circumstance should any of us kids ever be alone with a dog. Or that the family dog had to be leashed, trained, and constantly supervised and under control at all times, LOL! She would have burst out laughing! Back then, no one invested that amount of time in their KIDS, much less the family dog. We weren't supervised, the entire neighborhood filled with dogs wasn't supervised, no leash law, and no dogs spayed or neutered. Your mom called you home for lunch, then supper, then bedtime. The dogs hung with us all day. No one died, no one was mauled.

Imagine the millions of folks growing up on farms and homesteads at the turn of the last century, all of which most likely had farm dogs... probably farm collies. Imagine a farmer in the 1920's telling his kids that they could never be alone with the farm dogs, and to "always" have adult supervision when interacting with the family collie. How absurd!

And what do you supposed happened, 50, 100, or 150 years ago when a farm dog bit the farmers kid hard enough to do real damage? Did they go for "training" or to be "rehabilitated", LOL? No the farmer took the dog behind the barn and put a bullet in it's head, and that dog never lived to pass on it's shitty genes. And that's why generations of people lived happily and safely with dogs until recently, and our relationship with dogs changed; aggressive working breeds flooded the pet market, and dangerous dog fanciers had to reinvent what a dog actually was.

DubV said...

Great comments everyone.

The one by Branwyne that began with...

"I actually want to ask Freya a question, before she takes her leave."

was particularly touching for me.

Branwyne Finch said...

Thank you DubV...I always appreciate your well informed comments, also.

I am starting to wonder if the profile of many of these women who own and advocate for pit bulls includes exposure to domestic violence or abuse? I recently attended a parent workshop on domestic violence and teens, and one of the speakers, a lovely young woman, described her thought process when she was in a dangerously abusive relationship. She said she didn't know what was "normal" and what wasn't in a relationship. She didn't recognize what a healthy relationship entailed.

I think the same applies to our relationship with dogs...I would not tolerate violence from ANY domestic partner, human, canine or feline. How any kind, sane, peaceful person could WANT to own a dog that they anticipated would kill a neighbors dog, if only given a chance, seems to indicate a warped view of what a healthy relationship with a pet is. Why would a normal person want the stress of owning a dog that required constant management and supervision to avoid disaster? How can these people rationalize violent attacks by pit bulls by insisting that this is what a "normal" family companion does?

I just can't help but think about the pathology behind the desire to own a dangerous dog.

Freya L said...

“There is no such thing as an "old fashioned straight back GSD," those are back yard breeder/puppy mill terms.”
“But please.. continue to lecture us with your bull shit while posing as an expert because you rescued a pebble”
I made it pretty damn clear that those dogs aren’t bread to STANDARD but they are health tested, fixed if results are poor at a $2,000 plus loss to the breeder, puppies kept on a limited contract with the spay/neuter agreement and always taken back if unwanted and kept tabs on through a Facebook and website in which the buyers upload pictures on a regular bases. Obviously not your typical BYB or puppy mill. I also made it pretty clear not everyone would consider that a reputable breeder. Such as yourself.
Oh, and this is what I was trying to say in the words that I apparently just couldn’t get right.
“All dogs – purebreds and mixes – exhibit general canine behavior patterns. Dogs are predators with body parts designed to hunt, chase, kill, and eat. Size, color, coat type, activity level, and trainability are all incidental to these characteristics. Yorkshire Terriers and Toy Poodles, Bulldogs and Golden Retrievers, German Shepherds and Newfoundlands – all are predators by nature”
“Raymond and Lorna Coppinger (1) describe basic canine predatory behaviors in seven steps: orient, eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect. According to the Coppingers, dogs do not necessarily exhibit all of these behaviors even though they are designed to implement them.”
I suppose comparing them to a wolf wasn’t the best means to an end but the reality is that’s obviously the first predator I would compare them to because they’re the same species. Out of every other animal in this world they are the most like a wolf. They’re not like a cat; they’re not like a horse, or a fish. So as far as the typical wolf thing, no they aren’t wild animals but I still consider them like a wolf in the fact that that’s the closest relatable animal to them. Maybe the smaller one’s can be compared to a skunk (JUST KIDDING).
Furthermore, I’ve owned other breed of dogs and I’ve always had the same opinion about them being unpredictable and capable of hurting people if they felt the need to. Maybe because I don’t own small dogs and maybe because some of you have haven’t owned a bigger dog it’s hard to relate. I’ve had Huskies and maybe that’s also why I feel the wolf thing is true because for my Huskies, they we’re like little domesticated wolves. The closest thing I could actually get to a wild one. (Again, just kidding.)With my Huskies I always had to be on guard. Just as I’m always on guard withmy dog now.
“Although a domestic dog's communication and behavior may not be identical to, or consistent with, that of the wolf, understanding the wolf is useful in learning how to read and communicate with your own dog.”
http://runningwiththewolves.org/wolfinourdog.htm
Actually pretty interesting read if you actually like dogs and like to read different opinions on such subjects.

Freya L said...

The thing is I have done countless hours of research on various things about ALL dogs and multiple other animals, Chinchillas, Ferrets, Horses…all of which I own. There are always going to be varying opinions. Now I could go and find sources, and not from blogs or dog forums but from actual canine nutritionist and Holistic Vets, and Canine Behaviorist all backing up everything I said. As I’m sure any of you could do the same. Why? Because there is no TRUTH there are just THERIES, ideas about how dogs domesticated and what they should eat and everything in between. So the reality is you have to do the research and make an educated guess as to what you think is right to believe for you and your dog. It’s not necessary to attack someone for a differing opinion. You can give your opinion but no need to attack.
Now, obviously I’m not a normal person. As I said, I own a horse. An unpredictable and potentially dangerous animal. Even without meaning to cause harm to me I could always end up getting thrown off and breaking my neck. I actually have flown over my horses head when attempting a jump that my horse just wasn’t feeling like going over. There have been other minor instances such as bruised feet that have been stepped on and such. So apparently I just don’t like “normal” and safe animals without teeth or hooves or powerful bodies capable of over powering me if they felt the need to do so. Apparently I like dangerous animals with the potential to kill me. In my home I have a pit bull, when I go out to the facility I board at there’s a chance I might not make it back home after riding and dealing with my powerful animal, when I walk outside my garage door to smoke a cigarette there is a chance that there might by a black bear waiting for me right outside my door(according to the footprints in the snow leading up to my garage door this morning). My chances of survival are looking slim, possibly about 1%. Oh dear.
“Are you aware that folks have tried, in experimental settings, to raise wolf puppies as you would a dog in a home environment?...”
Perfectly well aware. What I found interesting is how they were able to domesticate the foxes so quickly. Really interesting.

Freya L said...

“Raw meat infers no cooking right? I can see where a meat-based diet would be good for a dog, but I am less sure on why you wouldn't cook it at least a bit (even from raw to rare).”
There’s a difference between raw and cooked meat and highly processed foods like kibble. Enzymes that help in the process of digestion and prevent the pancreas from over working itself and affecting the immune system of a dog.
Sources:
Now this is what the GSD owner with the dog with problems was dealing with I think:
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/digestive/c_multi_exocrine_pancreatic_insufficiency?ebNewBandWidth__www_petmd_com%3D700%253A1358360597524%3Bexpires%3DThu%2C_16_Jan_2014_18%3A23%3A17_UTC%3B_path%3D%2F%3B_domain%3D_www_petmd_com=
That’s why I recommended a raw diet in the first place. The dog needs digestive enzymes. They can go buy a container of it at the pet store and sprinkle it on the food they do feed. OR, they could feed a raw diet that naturally has those enzymes in it.
“I've covered the issue of digestive enzymes many times before. Processing and cooking destroy enzymes in food. (Man is the only animal that cooks his food.) In fact, any sustained heat of approximately 118-129 degrees F (48-54 C) destroys virtually all enzymes. This means that, for most of us, the food entering our stomachs is devoid of enzymes. Why is this important? Because enzyme rich foods actually "predigest" in your stomach through the action of their own enzymes in a process called autolytic digestion. Before stomach acid enters the process, you can actually break down as much as 75% of your meal. Without that "autolytic" digestion, you force the body to compensate by over producing stomach acid and digestive enzymes in the pancreas in an attempt to break down the "dead" food.”
-http://www.jonbarron.org/article/food-raw-versus-cooked
That is referring the raw foods, uncooked vegies and such, for people. I can find numerous sources talking about dogs as well. Just thought that would be easier to relate.
Now, this is stuff that I’ve already looked into and been looking into for a while now. But go on, call me an idiot who doesn’t know what I’m talking about. I admit I don’t know everything. At least I take the time to learn as much as a can. I also take people’s opinions and views into consideration and will continue to research canine nutrition because I want the best for my dog and all future dogs that I own.
Have a nice day everyone! :)

Miss Margo said...

Freya: What's your point...? What are you doing here, exactly...? Do you have a point, or are you just here to be a general contrarian...?

Freya L said...

“wolves are carnivores, dogs are omnivorous scavengers - like most bears.

dogs evolved eating human scraps”
Again? And I’m the idiot. Here you go:

http://liziangel.blogspot.com/2012/01/feeding-for-health-and-longevity-raw-vs.html

“The number and types of teeth reflect those of a ‘mesocarnivore’. The earliest Carnivora family of Miacidae, of which Miacis, the earliest known ancestor of the domestic dog was a member, were mesocarnivores. Modern day mesocarnivores include wolves, coyotes, foxes, civets and skunks, as well as dogs.”
Another:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/
Another:
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
Another:
http://www.healthydogma.com/cats-and-dogs-carnivores-or-omnivores/
“Nathaniel Fastinger, Ph.D., Senior Nutritionist and Sally Perea, DVM, MS, DACVN, Senior Nutritionist
Today’s dogs and cats share common ancestry and belong to the order Carnivora (also referred to as carnivorans). The animal members of this order are very diverse, and we find that just because an animal may belong to this order does not mean their dietary habits follow suit to what we typically expect for a carnivore. There are two methods of classifying the diets of animals found within the order Carnivora. The traditional method separates them into carnivores, omnivores and herbivores. The definition of a carnivore is an animal that consumes a diet consisting of almost exclusively animal meat. Omnivores consume both plant material and animal meat as their primary food source, while herbivores consume solely plant material. There is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a carnivore from an omnivore, or an omnivore from an herbivore, for that matter. An alternate method of classification uses a tripartite division into hyper-, meso- and hypo-carnivores. Hypercarnivores are any animal that consumes at least 70% animal flesh. Mesocarnivores and hypocarnivores consume between 50 and 70% animal flesh and less than 30% animal flesh, “
Again, restating the MESOCARNIVORES thing. Not OMNIVORE. MESOCARNIVORE. If you’re going to try to act like you know everything and your smarter and more educated than someone at least take the time to do some damn research.

Jim said...

1. The enzyme meme in regards to raw foods is a myth. Heat denaturation actually makes amino acids more available. Raw meats result in polypeptides being carried to the liver- this is pretty hard on the body. Further, there is no evidence that the enzymes in raw foods survive stomach acid. If one is concerned about digestive enzymes, which is rather silly since the body makes multiple types of its own, they can be more safely added, and efficiently used, by adding them along with a good probiotic to cooked food. which is something quality kibble manufacturers do. Digestive bacteria have more of an effect of bioavailability and good digestion than enzymes do. Which is why we have problems when we wipe out gut flora with antibiotics.

2. Does your backyard breeder friend prove his dogs in any venue? Herding? Obedience? Agility? IPO? The hallmark of a backyard breeder is not whether they have contracts or utilize limited registration (many of the on- line mills do that- limits their competition) it is that they have no breeding plan to improve the breed, they do not test or title, they do not understand things like, oh say, basic STRUCTURE.

3. If you have to be on your guard with your "huskies" (did you mean Sibeerian or Alaskan huskies, btw?) you obviously have very badly bred and reared "huskies."

4. I have big dogs. I have a dog trained and titled in protection work. I don't have to be on my guard with him. Hell, I don't even have to watch him with my Granddaughter. Good temperament from good breeding combined with good rearing and good socialization. It's nifty how that works.

Freya L said...

“Freya: What's your point...? What are you doing here, exactly...? Do you have a point, or are you just here to be a general contrarian...?”
First of all, I read these blogs because honestly they amuse me. If I feel like something isn’t right I do speak up such as I did on the other blog in which cyber bullying is obviously a fad. I have a right to an opinion and I will share it if I feel like it. When I first posted comments on this particular blog post I was actually talking about reputable breeding practices and such, not even about pit bulls. Actually, the funny thing is I haven’t talked about pit bulls at all. Yet, I’m getting attacked and told I’m an idiot. The fact is, as I said before. I can find sources to back up my opinions just as I’m sure they can because they are THERIES, not facts. I base my beliefs about dogs off of research and make an educated guess as to what makes sense to me for my dogs. Now, I’ve owned other dog breeds in the past. When this dog passes on I will be either getting a Basenji, a French bulldog, or an Alaskan Malamute.
I’m not some pit bull nutter that believes in nanny dog myths and all that bull shit. I rescued a mutt from a no kill shelter because I went there and fell for that particular dog. Not because of his breed. I don’t deny the fact he is a powerful animal, I don’t deny the history of his ancestors and what he was bred for, I’m not an idiot that lets him run around terrorizing innocent people. I’m not one of those people that blames the victim or denies the fact these dogs are dangerous. I don’t think they should be bred.
No one cares about any of that though. They see the word pit bull in one of my post it they rip me a part with their judgments or me.
Maybe someone will understand this so I’ll say it. This is why I defended that guy on the other blog. Not because I believe he was right to threaten someone. I personally don’t judge people based on looks but through their actions and I don’t believe it is right to threaten people. BUT, I know how hateful and cruel you people can be to anyone owning a pit bull and I’ve experienced it firsthand. So for someone that doesn’t have the emotional control, it’s easy to get to that place where you want to start threatening people because that hate just builds up until you want to explode.
I don’t dislike you guys because you don’t like pit bulls. I dislike you because you’re cruel and mean to people. Now, I know you guys get some idiots on here claiming that they’re dogs are the sweetest thing and would only lick you to death. I’m sure that gets annoying. It’s annoying to me that I have to sit on dog forums explaining to some idiot that they shouldn’t be breeding their bitch just because she’s a purty dog. I also try to educate people about the dangers associated with pit bulls and about being as responsible as they can be in preventing their dog from hurting any other animal or person. The funny thing is I can have the same opinion as some people on here without being down right hateful and mean. I actually try to educate people about responsible pit bull ownership and dog ownership in general rather than just attack. Because the reality is, blogs like this aren’t preventing the problem from continuing. Talking nice to someone and explaining to them that their dog is capable of ripping apart another dog and to not take it to a dog park is actually DOING something.

Freya L said...

“ enzyme meme in regards to raw foods is a myth. Heat denaturation actually makes amino acids more available. Raw meats result in polypeptides being carried to the liver- this is pretty hard on the body. Further, there is no evidence that the enzymes in raw foods survive stomach acid. If one is concerned about digestive enzymes, which is rather silly since the body makes multiple types of its own, they can be more safely added, and efficiently used, by adding them along with a good probiotic to cooked food. which is something quality kibble manufacturers do. Digestive bacteria have more of an effect of bioavailability and good digestion than enzymes do. Which is why we have problems when we wipe out gut flora with antibiotics.”
And your sources for that information? If you’re going to say something like it is a fact than provide sources for that information. THANK YOU.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Freya,

You said, " OR, they could feed a raw diet that naturally has those enzymes in it."

If a dog has EPI, regardless if you feed raw of kibble, the dog needs the enzymes added. The ONLY exception is if you are also feeding the dog a portion of the pancreas. It is more efficient to ground the food to a paste and then add the enzymes. Then let the ground food, kibble or raw sit for 15 minutes, making a raw paste or soupy liquid.

Raw meat DOES NOT contain enzymes, it MUST be added.

Jim said...

It comes from a text book:
"Bioavailability of Nutrients for Animals" by Clarence B. Ammerman

A text book is something which people who actually study a subject use.

p.s. the word is theories, not "THERIES" - if you'd written that once I would assume a typo, but repeated usage leads me to assume you don't know how to spell it. Perhaps less time doing "research" on-line and more in an actual classroom would help.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

When I say raw meat DOES NOT contain enzymes, I mean DIGESTIVE ENZYMES. The enzymes used to break the food down to be digested. The reason to ground food into small particles is so the digestive enzymes are closer to the food allowing more efficient digestion.

I don't know of any raw diet that naturally includes digestive enzymes unless you are intentionally adding the pancreas of an animal or adding the enzymes yourself. The pancreatic enzymes have a shelf life and if you are going to use an animal pancreas for the enzymes, you must freeze the pancreas until you are ready to use it.

Jim said...

One more thing, mesocarnivore is a subjective classification within the facultative carnivore species. Since there is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a facultative carnivore from an omnivore, it's really a distinction without a difference as regards the discussion here.

Dogs are not obligate carnivores, whether one wishes to label them omnivores or mesocarnivores is really a matter of personal preference/habit.

Carry on.

orangedog said...

I have a horse too, and would trust her over any pitbull. I feel secure in the knowledge that she won't go rogue and try to kill me for fun.

Freya L said...

“2. Does your backyard breeder friend prove his dogs in any venue? Herding? Obedience? Agility? IPO? The hallmark of a backyard breeder is not whether they have contracts or utilize limited registration (many of the on- line mills do that- limits their competition) it is that they have no breeding plan to improve the breed, they do not test or title, they do not understand things like, oh say, basic STRUCTURE.”

-Listen, I’m sure you can go find some GSD breeding forum to go bitch on. I’m not a breeder. There’s a GSD dog breeding community that blames show dog breeders for ruining the breed and causing health problems and they breed those types of GSDs. If you have a problem with it, if you think they are wrong than go fight with them about it.

“3. If you have to be on your guard with your "huskies" (did you mean Sibeerian or Alaskan huskies, btw?) you obviously have very badly bred and reared "huskies."
-Now, someone posted on here about how they had gotten GSDs from reputable breeders and those same dogs had health problems and aggression problems and I haven’t seen you question them about the fact they got those dogs from reputable breeders. My Huskies were dogs, so yes I was on guard with them. They were both HIGH energy dogs that after playing, my house would look like it got hit by a tornado inside. I couldn’t leave them alone together because I would always come home to find something broken. This was when they were younger. As they got older they calmed down. Even then, I could never feed both of them in the same room together and I had to crate them when I gave them bones because they were both food aggressive towards each other. NOT to me, but yes they would fight if one would go sticking its nose into the other ones food. So at some points I did crate and rotate my Huskies. Not because they were badly bred but because they were dogs acting like dogs. I had Siberian Huskies because after researching the breed I felt like it would be idiotic to get a Husky made to work when I knew I wouldn’t be able to provide it with a job to do. Oh, and they weren’t badly reared huskies, thank you very much. I spend a shit load of time working with both those dogs. They were very well trained but it took time because they were both very independent dogs. I know now I shouldn’t have bought both puppies at the time and till this day I doubt I will ever own more than one dog or at least more than one puppy at one time. It’s to hectic trying to control two high energy puppies.

Freya L said...

Raw meat DOES NOT contain enzymes, it MUST be added”

Actually, you make a very good point. People that feed raw usually feed different organs. Some people can’t get ahold of the Pancreas but I’ve done a lot of reading about green tripe. Now there are some people that think it is over rated and not as good as other people believe it to be. Again, another thing that you can find sources to back either side.
Here’s some info about green tripe:
http://www.k9instinct.com/1/post/2013/01/the-benefits-of-raw-green-tripe-for-dogs.html
Apparently it’s full of digestive enzymes as well as other potential benefits for the dogs that it’s fed to.
“Some of the many incredible benefits of feeding raw green tripe include an improvement to skin and coat condition, reduction in allergy symptoms and skin conditions, cleaner teeth, an increase in muscle, improved digestion and absorption of nutrients, a reduction in digestive disorders and problems, and overall improvement to general health”
Honestly it sounds like some type of miracle food. I think that it may have those potential benefits but it’s also possible that it could actually just be over rated. So what I would be concerned with is, is it dangerous to feed my dog? If it provides my dog with all those benefits than great but if not I at least want to know that it won’t cause him harm.
That’s kind of my philosophy for feeding raw. As long as it isn’t causing my dog harm and my dog is doing well on the food he is eating than I’m happy.
Fat was another issue I had. I don’t want my dog eating a high fat diet and getting something like pancreatitis. So I’ve tried searching for as much information as I can about that. Some people believe that it’s only cooked fats that are bad for dogs.
Some people believe that dogs need fish oil. Some people believe that it’s not good for dogs. Both groups of people can provide sources for their beliefs.
Do you understand what I’m getting at?
“the word is theories, not "THERIES" - if you'd written that once I would assume a typo, but repeated usage leads me to assume you don't know how to spell it. Perhaps less time doing "research" on-line and more in an actual classroom would help.”
Woops sorry. Never claimed to be English major. Actually, you know English might not even be my first language so making fun of me for not spelling a word correctly would actually be kind of mean. Anyways, Microsoft Word isn’t correcting it, so I’m not sure what is up with that.

Jim said...

I am a member of GSD forums and breed clubs- working breeders and showline breeders will probably never see eye to eye on many things, but one thing they ALL agree on is that people breeding "old fashioned straight backed GSDs" are trashy backyard breeders.

If your "huskies" are so well raised, why do they have to be crated and rotated and why do they destroy things and make your house look like a tornado went through after playing? 4 dogs in my home and they are only crated for car rides (and at shows/trials) but nothing is ever broken or destroyed and we can play indoors without destroying the place.

All 4 of mine can eat in the kitchen at the same time, be given bully sticks at the same time, fed table scraps at the same time. We trained them plus they have naturally good temperaments from being well bred. No resource guarding problems. Ever.

Since you need help in this area I highly recommend a book called "Mine" by Jean Donaldson. I don't agree with her in many areas, but I have used these techniques on fosters directly from the shelter and always had success.

Of course my fosters are all Labradors- not pit maulers.

snarky said...

like i said before , knowitalldogooderinpitluvindingbat.

Freya L said...

“If your "huskies" are so well raised, why do they have to be crated and rotated and why do they destroy things and make your house look like a tornado went through after playing? 4 dogs in my home and they are only crated for car rides (and at shows/trials) but nothing is ever broken or destroyed and we can play indoors without destroying the place.”
Did I not make it clear that they were puppies at the time? I said as they got older they calmed down. The only time that I would crate and rotate was during feeding times because they were food aggressive towards each other. It’s not like they would straight out attack each other over food. One finished eating before the other one and went over to him and started sniffing his food and the other one would growl and get upset. So I just started feeding them separately. Not a big deal. Neither one ever had an issue letting me near their food or their treats.
When they were younger they would get intense while playing. Things on the coffee table would get knocked over with lashing tails and such. Again, you want to turn this into some type of argument over proper breeding and training when it was just dogs acting like normal dogs.
You can sit there and act like you’re the only person in the world that has a dog that NEVER does anything wrong. Good for you.

Freya L said...

“I have a horse too, and would trust her over any pitbull. I feel secure in the knowledge that she won't go rogue and try to kill me for fun.”

What do you do with your horse? Trail riding or do you do show jumping? Perhaps Dressage?

Jim said...

The problem is it is NOT just dogs acting like normal dogs. A bigger problem is that you have that attitude and you own a pit bull. Your failure to even recognize good canine behavior much less know how to attain it is a damn dangerous failure given your circumstances.

snarky said...

FREYA DOGGESS seems to think u cant judge someone like carbum who had idiotic doodlings all over his face but if i want to buy a dog from a breeder or feed it commercial dogfood then im ignorant or amoral . hippo-crite

april 29 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
april 29 said...

april 29 said...
Holy cow, Freya L. sure does go on doesn't she?

Mercy child, you have the tact of Attila the Hun.

I have a horse too (actually well over 50 years of owning horses) and I'm as normal as they come. Here is the thing about my horse, he can't be shown... ever. Guess why? HE WAS MAULED BY A PIT BULL. Those people thought she was sweet as pie too. The mauling lasted 20 minutes and covered a mile. He will never be the same, major PTSD, scars and developing arthritis in the worst injured leg. Do I hold a grudge? Yes. I'm riding a stone gorgeous and very talented reining prospect on trail, medicated for anxiety. Be sure to keep your pit bull out of the barn. The other boarders will sure appreciate that.

I need to go take my Standard Poodle out to potty and then clean my stalls so I will miss the next essay from Freya.

BTW child, dogs are bred, bread makes nice toast. Why don't pit bull owners understand the difference?

Putme Incharge said...

Freya,

I currently own over 20 horses and have had horses for 40+ years.

I want to let you know that back before shit bulls were everywhere- 1980's- one of my clients had their foal MASSACRED by pit bulls, and the mother of the foal so severely maimed on both hind legs that she had to be put to sleep-even after a valiant effort to save her. The foal was sired by one of my stallions. That was my first experience with them and there has been nothing that has made me change my opinion of them that I formed then based on knowledge.

What people do with their horses makes no difference, not sure what your little snark was inferring. Not surprising though from a nutter.

April, I am very sorry about your horse. Traumas like that sadly stick with them for the rest of their life.

april 29 said...

They can forgive but they never forget. Thanks Putmeincharge.

Branwyne Finch said...

Umm, guys, do you get the feeling that we are debating with someone who is in high school? Why am I getting the sense that Freya is very young?

Freya, how old are you? If you are a teenager, just keep in mind that many posters here are much older, and more than a few have advanced degrees in science, vast experience working with and training animals, or just, in general, more life experience. It's not a place for very young posters, or a place to debate feeding raw. It's mostly a place where people who have been attacked by a pit bull, have had a pet attacked (or killed) by a pit bull, or have been terrorized by a neighborhood pit bull, to come and vent and discuss ways to keep our pets and community safe.

If you think we are being too "mean" I suggest you check out the Beta Fish forums and read what happens when someone tells posters there they plan on keeping their fish in a small "betta vase"....the carnage is unbelievable! That's the nature of special interest blogs.

So far, the pit bull owners who enter here don't add anything to the discussion. If your feelings are getting hurt, it's probably better for you to stop reading.

orangedog said...

LOL, you're so right about the Betta forums. I had to stop reading them because there were some really horrible abuse stories. I know it's "just a fish", but they do have little personalities. Quite possibly the most abused pet on the planet.

I don't know what difference it makes how I ride my horse either. Over 30+ years, I've ridden lots of horses in just about every discipline you can imagine. I've been nipped once by an unruly stallion and kicked once by a foal that wanted to play with me. I haven't had any major injuries because I respect them for what they are - big ass animals.
I don't know why pitters refuse to acknowledge the breeding behind their dogs. If you go to any other power dog breed association, you'll see warnings that "this dog is not for everyone". But not pits. Nuh-uh. It's "nanny dog"-this and "Petey"-that, and pictures of children climbing or sleeping on dogs - something no other dog people would recommend. It's all about reshaping the image of the fighting dog, and when some poor sap gets their child mauled by nanny, pitters throw them under the bus. Why? They were just believing your bullshit.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Branwyne,

Freya is in the "all dogs" dot this, "all dogs" do that, "all dogs" are predators, so don't be surprised when they kill category. All of her statements go back to her common premise.

I've owned 3 GSDs so far and I have seen all of them exhibit some very high form of the herding instinct at some points in their life. It was triggered by someone removing furniture from the home, boy riding by on his bike, or someone leaving, it's tough to predict until you see it. I don't know where I read it, but the herding instinct is a genetic mutation of the prey drive enhanced by breeding dogs with a similar behavior.

Jim, you've had more experience, have you noticed this?

Now apply that to pit bulls. Pit bulls have been bred for dog aggression, instant and sustained aggression aka gameness, grip, hold, and shake style of bite, some use playful display as a stealth tactic, etc. I don't know the full list, I'm sure we can ask a dog fighter for the full list of things to look for in prime pit bull breeding stock.

At some point in a pit bull's life, I'm sure someone or something has triggered this behavior and I'm sure many pit nutters are oblivious to what circumstances will trigger the behavior or even how to identify when the pit bull "turns on". I think BYBs have diluted this behavior so when someone gets a pit bull, they really never know what they're getting.

Miss Margo said...

My intuition is that Freya is a teenager or perhaps undergrad age.

(To be fair, we've had some cool commenters (sp?) on this blog who are very young...Rhea springs to mind.)

But then, I remember thinking that Ryan Nutter was a teenage girl. I recall snarking at him, in a most unladylike fashion, that he probably lived with Mom and ate Hot Pockets.

Anyway, this is one reason I asked Freya what her POINT was, and why she was here. So far, she hasn't proffered an argument or a philosophy. Just general contrarianism.

snarky said...

these folk who have pits are like clones of each other........ they look alike , sound alike , spell bread not bred , never paragraph , tell us we are lonely and bored and we wish their pits would maul them (true), tell us to rescue pits not patronize breeders, they go to pit smart stores for their pit treats , think tattoo and graffiti is art , dye blue or pink stripes in their hair , dress their pits in costume at music festivals , think all knowledge comes from the internet , watch and worship cesar milan and L.A.CHOPPERS., have scars from old scateboarding accidents and jrt attacks , think most people dislike poodles, dont understand rasism or what hitler stood for , think pitbulls have sound judgement and decision making skills , think all small dogs are lethal killers and picking them up makes them worse , think pitbulls have finer feelings like pride and dignity , ...... and most of all they think pit bulls kick ass.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Miss Margo,

Frey is one of those "all dogs bite" pit nutters.

She probably thinks with love and affection a confirmed killer like Bones can be rehabilitated and ignores the the fact that even with years of behavior "modification" Bones will still remain a threat to any family who adopts him and anyone within striking range. If Bones is "rehabilitated" it affords him the opportunity to attack without notice and unobstructed.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Snarky, LOL!

Miss Margo said...

Thanks Rumpel.

I couldn't follow her bc of all the deleted posts.

P.S. I think poodles are rad. I frequently walk past a NY Services for the Blind center on 23rd St, and I see many seeing-eye dogs there. Most are labs or GSD, but I also see standard poodles. I talked to one woman who had a black one; she said they were einstein dogs.

Is it true poodles are/were used as guard dogs? Someone here must know.

Branwyne Finch said...

Rump, I have to say that I think my all time favorite breed of dog is the GSD. I don't own one now, and probably never will. I chose a dog based on what would be a good fit for my family and my lifestyle. I am also aware of how difficult it can be to find a GSD breeder with a good breeding program, producing dogs with no temperament issues.

I have met three outstanding GSD's in the last few years...all were from German working lines. One was a monster, a HUGE dog, wolf like in appearance, but an absolute cream puff in temperament. He was totally dog social, and once I watched him take the head of a rude, unruly dog who was bothering him in his HUGE mouth and gently guide the pest away. He also had that intelligence the breed is known for, you can see it in the eyes....expressive dark eyes, that seem to really understand what you are saying.

I think there are still enough decent breeders of an old working breed like the GSD to salvage it from the mess of fear biters and crazy, aggressive dogs that I hear about all the time. There is enough genetic material out there, and enough people who care about the breed. Unlike the pit bull "breeders", the GSD folks acknowledge the problems in the breed, and discuss and debate openly about where the breed is heading.

Jim said...

Yes the herding instinct is considered to be a social and now genetic adaptation of prey drive (although prey drive is a loose term that covers a lot of territory) basically someone a long time ago began selecting dogs who exhibited intense stalking and chase behaviors (part of prey drive) and at the same time selected away from grab bite (to some extent, it is still highly prized in GSDs) and very definitely away from kill bite- and began using them to herd, tend, and protect livestock.

In the GSD community it is openly acknowledged that there has been a tendency toward "spooky" dogs (most GSD aggression is actually fear based aggression from dogs with unstable temperaments) in showline dogs, American showlines in particular. Good breeders recognize this and are actively breeding toward a more stable dog using temperament testing as well as performance venues in addition to the conformation ring to select breeding stock.

Working line breeder also need to be viewed with healthy skepticism, as breeding for sport dogs (dogs that are super high drive and flashy in Schutzhund) has resulted in some pretty difficult and sometimes dangerous dog. Word to the wise, if you hear a GSD enthusiast refer to a dog as "civil" it has a completely different meaning than as normally used. A "civil" dog will take on a human without a great deal of goading. It is a trait I think is horrible, but you will find it in DDR and Czech lines in particular.

They are a wonderful breed of dog when properly bred and raised by the right sort of person. Highly intelligent, biddable, responsive, emotionally tuned to their handler in a way few breeds are. But those very traits, when exaggerated, are what led to a normal and healthy suspicion of strangers turning into spooky dogs. They notice EVERYTHING and if not of stable temperament will overreact to EVERYTHING as well.

So choose wisely if you choose a GSD. The only thing that keeps me from saying I will never be without one in my home is the knowledge that I am getting older and eventually I will need to go smaller with my dog choices :)

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Branwyne,

Yes, the expressive dark eyes. My first GSD was very smart he sometimes would stare at family members, not for dominance but just soaking them in. Very weird at first.

Part of the intelligence we see in GSDs is the bond a GSD shares with it's owner. Like Jim says, GSDs notice EVERYTHING. They also produce a very solid bond with their owner.

What I notice as part of GSD behavior is the ability to discriminate. My first GSD was fear aggressive. What kept him out of trouble was his ability to discriminate. Children, women, small dogs, and puppies were treated differently from men and adult dogs. He was also very predictable.

There's no propaganda campaign about GSD "nanny dogs" (GSDs are more nanny dogs than any pit bull, if there ever was such a thing) or a prominent campaign of any sort, just encouraging a solid breeding program.

april 29 said...

Miss Margo, Poodles were retrievers. The poofy haircut? What happens when a working trim meets outrageous style. The poofy parts were left long to protect the heart and joints from cold water. The clipped parts reduced weight allowing the dog to swim with less effort. There are still people who will hunt with Poodles, not many but a few.

When my dog was young we were walking her on a trail that surrounded a small, duck intensive lake. Right out of the car she did not pay any attention to the ducks at all. As we walked something just clicked she SAW those ducks. She did not know quite what she was supposed to do about them but there was sure a primal connection. Neat to watch the genes turn on.

Guarding? Not a Poodle job.

DubV said...

I knew a GSD/goldie mix that was likely never in a home a day in her life prior to adoption. She peed in the house the first day, was corrected and taken outside to pee. That was the end of her house training. She never had an accident again. She was the smartest dog I've ever known.

snarky said...


G.S.D.s are the real king of dogs , pits are the shits and those who dont agree are nit-wits.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

April,

I think the Standard Poodle is a beautiful dog. The mini ones are cute too.

So you're saying they don't work the dogs as part of confirmation?

I was reading up on breed standards. The beginning of the UKC "pit bull" standard sounds like a match.com profile:

"The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children."

It's ironic that pit bulls/APBTs attack and kill so many chilren.

"Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed."

It should read the APBT must be DA. DA is one of the trademark traits of the damn dog. Also it's eagerness to escape confinement and destroy life, dog, sheep, llama, or human.

"The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers."

This has not been my experience, anyone? Meth lab owners swear by the pit bull's "zest for life". I wish they would expand on this "zest for life" attribute of the APBT.

The AKC uses the American Staffordshire Terrier aka pit bull. There is NO guidance on temperament, yet the breed was established June 10, 1936. Guess they're still scratching their heads.

snarky said...


where do those nutters come from and howcome they have the free time to be posting long comments round the clock on craven? all i can say is they must have very boring lonely lives to be coming to craven just to be insulted and hammered with the truth and logic. lol

april 29 said...

Rumplestiltskin, the Poodles you see in the conformation ring just look pretty for a living. That is their full time job.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Snarky,

Making illogical points and nonsense to sensible people is one of the primary duties of all bully breed rescues. Another important duty is to post pitbull shit comments aka excuses and propaganda on news stories where a pit bull has killed someone, their beloved pet and/or service dog.

It's a full time job. In Kathy Sutter's case, on her free time crate and rotate her 10+ abominations caged in her tiny garage.

snarky said...


i read travels with charlie , when i was growing up , but i like all kinds of dogs , except the kind that douche bags like . actually i did like one douche bags dog but even she could be bitch with other dogs .

S.K.Y. said...

I'd better watch what I say with so much German Shepherd love going on here. But I have to interject that the breed I would most like to outlaw along with pits are GSDs.

Here are my experiences with them in 35+ years in the training and show world. (For anybody new here, I do about a dozen sports with my dogs, up to the international level, and have 64 titles in 9 sports. I also have an M.S.--and very nearly finished my Ph.D.--in animal behavior).

First of all, I worked for many years as a dog behavior consultant. Out of about 300 aggression cases I worked with, half were German Shepherds or GSD mixes. The only dogs that have ever bitten me, my friends, and all the trainers I know have been GSDs. The only dog that I witnessed mauling somebody was a purebred female GSD. This happened during this dog's initial consultation. The owners had told me on the phone that the dog had no bite history, but barked and growled at visitors. We had taken the dog out in the suburban neighborhood to practice controlled walking with a Gentle Leader. I asked the parents to walk the dog, but their teen son grabbed the leash out of their hands and they let him. A block later, a friend of the son--who the dog had met many times--came up and joined the walk, walking beside the teen son and chatting with him. I turned to tell the parents that the friend should leave, when the dog leapt up and repeatedly bit the friend on the chest, putting at least 20 deep punctures in the boy's chest before we could pull off the dog. The good news is that the woman owner went off in the ambulance to care for the mauled visitor, while the father took the dog in another car straight to the vet to be euthanized.

When I think of GSDs, my first picture is of the 150 GSDs I worked with that tried to rip their doors from the hinges to attack me when I showed up on their doorsteps for a consultation. I've met maybe two GSDs in my life that have not tried to bite me (or succeeded in biting me)... or that I've witnessed biting or charging at other people.

And as Jim stated, this is due to fear aggression. But whatever the cause, I find GSDs very scary and dangerous. One stat I remember from the early 90's, when the CDC still kept records, was that GSDs were the #1 most biting breed in the USA, and they bit 14x more often than the #2 breed on the list (which was a cocker or Dalmatian, I believe). As everybody I know in the dog world has been bitten by GSDs, and only by GSDs, this seems like a believable statistic to me.

My other interaction with GSDs has been at dog competitions. When I first started competing in obedience in the 70's, GSDs were a common obedience breed. That's because most trainers/instructors of that era were returned Vietnam vets or old guys that had GSD K9s in WWII. However, since the early 80's, you almost never see GSDs in obedience. They are also absent from agility, herding, dock dog, musical freestyle, etc. The few that I've seen were comically incompetent at running, jumping or moving. They were basically so over-angulated as to be cripples. And these were working-lines dogs imported from Germany or the Czech Republic, or offspring of those imports. The dogs are slower than molasses and can't jump or turn worth a darn. They are comically slow and uncoordinated on an agility course--my 8 lb. Papillon would put a GSD to shame. There's not a single GSD that is competitive at the national or international level in agility. It's a shame, because they used to be real athletes. Here's a great clip of a GSD that I would not mind owning, if he were still alive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6QUmalgurU.

(to be continued...)

S.K.Y. said...

(continued...)

I've been involved in UK Working Trials and Schutzhund, and the few GSDs still doing those sports (which have been taken over by Border Collies and Belgian Malinois, respectively) frequently have unstable temperaments. As an example, I was in a BH test this past summer, and the only GSD in the test lunged and tried to attack passers-by in the "walking along a high-traffic street" part of the test. And the stupid judge passed the dog anyway, since the handler held back the dog from actually sinking his teeth into people. And the BH is supposed to be a temperament test showing friendly and controllable temperament on walks... a precursor to being allowed to compete in bite-work. Need I mention that all the GSDs I've met are dog-aggressive fence-fighters that have to undergo crate n' rotate for life and can't stand near any other dogs while waiting to go into the competition arena?

In addition to this, there are the health issues. I believe that GSDs are the current #1 or #2 breed for having the most epilepsy. I've had several acquaintances whose GSDs had epilepsy. The dogs had to be medicated with phenobarbitol and were basically like zombies. If the owners took the dog off the medicine, the dogs seizured to death. Hip dysplasia is, of course, a famous issue in GSDs, though I think this has been addressed and improved somewhat by breeders. Another issue is an OCD behavior where the GSD chases his tail repeatedly, then grabs it and chews on it. The tail is perpetually mangled and bleeding. Often, a small amputation is necessary. As soon as the tail heals, the dog is back to chomping on it again. I know of GSDs that had to have 3 or more partial tail amputations.

And here's a patently unfair thing to say, but I will anyway: GSDs are probably the worst shedders of any dog breed I know. For months at a time, they shed grocery bags full of hair every day. As fast as you can rake them, their coat comes out... and out...

When I think of a GSD, I picture a barking, charging, ears pinned back, shedding, uncoordinated, epileptic, dysplastic, OCD-tail-chasing, fear-biter. And I can't see how ANYBODY would live with one as a family pet. I was actually pretty shocked to see how many people on Craven have expressed their admiration for the breed when I find them much more likely to attack (but not to kill) than pit bulls.

The only admirable quality I've seen in GSDs is that this breed is highly unlikely to be aggressive to its own family. I've never once heard of a GSD biting anybody in its immediate family. The aggression is only reserved for strangers.

BTW, guess what breed of dog turns out to live next door to my new house? (I bought my house this summer, sight unseen, while still in Istanbul). Yep, a GSD. Who happens to be the most escaping dog in my village. She is well known to the police and the owners have had to go to court and get multiple fines for the dog running at large and threatening people and other dogs. This particular GSD is the reason I had to take a $7000 loan to put up a commercial-style fence around my yard with barb-arms and three strands of wire jutting out to keep this dog from climbing in to kill my 8 lb. and 37 lb. dogs.

Now, that said... I really like our cravenly GSD owners, Rumpelstiltskin and Jim! I think I would probably like their GSDs, too, because anybody on Craven is highly unlikely to put up with having a dangerous dog of their own. And now I'm a BIG fan of Jim, because he had the balls to mention many of the GSD issues that I have mentioned in this post. He doesn't have his head in the sand, that's for sure.

So I will now go on record for the first time as saying: There might indeed be nice, good-tempered, athletic GSDs out there. And some of them might be right in the homes of Craven fans.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent a bit (okay, a lot), about this breed, because my friends and I have all had waaay more problems with GSD aggression than pit aggression.

snarky said...


my shep/x dogs were gentle , smart , atheletic and beautifull and not neurotic like many border collies can be.

DubV said...

"Snarky,

Making illogical points and nonsense to sensible people is one of the primary duties of all bully breed rescues. Another important duty is to post pitbull shit comments aka excuses and propaganda on news stories where a pit bull has killed someone, their beloved pet and/or service dog.

It's a full time job. In Kathy Sutter's case, on her free time crate and rotate her 10+ abominations caged in her tiny garage."

I think Verizon should give Rumpel free fiber optic internet for a year just for this comment.

S.K.Y. said...

Totally agree about the neurotic Border Collie. Definitely true--and the reason I'm on my last of 3 BCs and won't have any more unless I get a sheep farm someday. (My favorite sport is herding, but it's too expensive to practice when you live in the suburbs).

One dog I didn't count among "GSDs that haven't tried to bite me or my friends" was a dog that lived in the same apt. building with me during grad school. This dog was actually a wolf/GSD hybrid, about 1/3 wolf. It was a 12-year old dog owned by a vet student. That dog was very calm and non-aggressive, perhaps partially due to age. That's one I never would have guessed as being a good 'un, as I've had three wolf-dog clients, all of whose dogs had either bitten people or were acting predatory towards outside children. (For instance, stalking toddlers in a predatory way). So I wouldn't normally recommend a wolf hybrid or a GSD, but that particular mix was a nice dog.

Freya L said...

“april 29 said...
Holy cow, Freya L. sure does go on doesn't she?

Mercy child, you have the tact of Attila the Hun.

I have a horse too (actually well over 50 years of owning horses) and I'm as normal as they come. Here is the thing about my horse, he can't be shown... ever. Guess why? HE WAS MAULED BY A PIT BULL. Those people thought she was sweet as pie too. The mauling lasted 20 minutes and covered a mile. He will never be the same, major PTSD, scars and developing arthritis in the worst injured leg. Do I hold a grudge? Yes. I'm riding a stone gorgeous and very talented reining prospect on trail, medicated for anxiety. Be sure to keep your pit bull out of the barn. The other boarders will sure appreciate that.

I need to go take my Standard Poodle out to potty and then clean my stalls so I will miss the next essay from Freya.

BTW child, dogs are bred, bread makes nice toast. Why don't pit bull owners understand the difference?”
I’m sorry to hear that happened to your horse. I’m also sorry that I spelt bred as bread. I apologize for the typo. I don’t know what people’s issue is. I copy and paste people’s comments to quote and reply and see usually about 5-10 words that have something wrong with them. I probably spelt bred about 20 times and the one time I spelt it like bread that’s an issue. Same with Jim and him calling me out on spelling theories as theries nonsense. I did actually only put that once, it was a typo, yet his comment insinuates that I did it more than once.
From now on I’ll be sure to correct everyone’s grammar. Obviously that’s what I should have been doing all along.

Freya L said...

Branwyne,
“Umm, guys, do you get the feeling that we are debating with someone who is in high school? Why am I getting the sense that Freya is very young?

Freya, how old are you? If you are a teenager, just keep in mind that many posters here are much older, and more than a few have advanced degrees in science, vast experience working with and training animals, or just, in general, more life experience. It's not a place for very young posters, or a place to debate feeding raw. It's mostly a place where people who have been attacked by a pit bull, have had a pet attacked (or killed) by a pit bull, or have been terrorized by a neighborhood pit bull, to come and vent and discuss ways to keep our pets and community safe.”
I’m in my mid-20s, still attending college. I have a degree in Psychology and I’m attending medical school with the future goal in mind of becoming a Psychiatrist.
I know exactly what these blogs are for. I understand a lot of people on here have had issues with these dogs. I actually had a really great discussion with someone about an experience they had with a pit bull and they’re own dog. Guess what? She didn’t attack me and we were actually capable of having an intelligent discussion. I am first and foremost a dog owner. I have owned other breeds in the past and will in the future. I’m not a pit bull nutter trying to argue my case for pit bulls. MY comments had all originally been about reputable breeding and I mentioned raw in one paragraph and owning a pit bull offhandedly. I never intended to even talk about pit bulls. I was actually very nice in my post. I came back on later that day and found about 10 different comments attacking me for owning a pit bull when I had originally been talking about reputable breeding. S.K.Y attacked me for recommending a raw diet to someone and in that same post admitted they feed raw too. It was insane. I’m still amazed. I’ve stated numerous times on this post that I’m not here to fight about pit bulls.
As far as why I’m still on here arguing with people? Honestly I’m frustrated by the arrogance of the people that replied to me. I could care less about the pit bull nutter comments and the other bs. I just don’t like people claiming that they KNOW things and that what they are saying is ABSOLUTE FACT when in fact they are just theories or just straight up wrong.

Freya L said...

For instance the omnivore thing. I posted numerous links, two specifically that were very informative about the fact that dogs are mesocarnivores and someone replied that they can still be called omnivores. It’s the most idiotic thing. Mesocarnivore is a classification of carnivores NOT omnivores. So no you can’t just call it an omnivore. It’s a type of carnivore not a type of omnivore, regardless of the fact it eats plants.
http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/encyclopedia/carnivore/?ar_a=1
“Most carnivores are not obligate carnivores. A hypercarnivore is an organism that depends on animals for at least 70 percent of its diet. Plants, fungi, and other nutrients make up the rest of their food. All obligate carnivores, including cats, are hypercarnivores. Sea stars, which prey mostly on clams and oysters, are also hypercarnivores.

Mesocarnivores depend on animal meat for at least 50 percent of their diet. Foxes are mesocarnivores. They also eat fruits, vegetables, and fungi.

Hypocarnivores depend on animal meat for less than 30 percent of their diet. Most species of bears are hypocarnivores. They eat meat, fish, berries, nuts, and even the roots and bulbs of plants. Hypocarnivores such as bears are also considered omnivores.”
So to spell this out for people. Hypocarnivores such as bears can be referred to as omnivores. NOT mesocarnivores like dogs. As it says, most carnivores are not obligate carnivores such as the cat which is labeled as a hypercarnivore. That doesn’t mean they are NOT carnivores and shouldn’t be labeled as such.
So when you say, “many posters here are much older, and more than a few have advanced degrees in science, vast experience working with and training animals, or just, in general, more life experience”…I’m not seeing the proof of that. I dislike arrogant pompous asses who think they know everything, talk out of their ass and end up not knowing what the hell they are talking about. Hence the fact I’m still sitting here replying to all the bs I see being written.
“If you think we are being too "mean" I suggest you check out the Beta Fish forums and read what happens when someone tells posters there they plan on keeping their fish in a small "betta vase"....the carnage is unbelievable! That's the nature of special interest blogs.

So far, the pit bull owners who enter here don't add anything to the discussion. If your feelings are getting hurt, it's probably better for you to stop reading.”
My feelings aren’t getting hurt. I don’t think it’s right to attack someone for no reason. Yes, I think it’s mean. That’s not because I feel bad for people’s feelings getting hurt or my own. It’s just my own personal little philosophy or religious conviction. Whatever you want to label it as. I was originally being nice and not “snarking” at people but since everyone seems to just not understand plain English and people want to be ignorant assholes I’m obviously not going to try to go out of my way and be nice. I don’t have anything to say about pit bulls but as far as this dog nutrition and training bs goes. I feel bad for anyone that actually treats these people like they know what the hell they are talking about. Feeding a raw diet could tremendously help a dog’s health and making it seem like you know what you’re talking about and possibly preventing someone from feeding their dog a diet that it can thrive on rather than just survive on is unethical.

Freya L said...

Orangedog,
“I don't know what difference it makes how I ride my horse either”
Again, I was honestly just curious. Not trying to be sarcastic or snarkish(can I use that made up word like that or is that unintelligent?). Sorry I even bothered asking to be honest.
“don't know why pitters refuse to acknowledge the breeding behind their dogs. If you go to any other power dog breed association, you'll see warnings that "this dog is not for everyone". But not pits. Nuh-uh. It's "nanny dog"-this and "Petey"-that, and pictures of children climbing or sleeping on dogs - something no other dog people would recommend. It's all about reshaping the image of the fighting dog, and when some poor sap gets their child mauled by nanny, pitters throw them under the bus. Why? They were just believing your bullshit.”
My bullshit? No. Some people’s perhaps but not mine.
Rumpel,
“Freya is in the "all dogs" dot this, "all dogs" do that, "all dogs" are predators, so don't be surprised when they kill category. All of her statements go back to her common premise”
First of all, I never said to not be surprised if they kill. Don’t put words in my mouth. Dogs shouldn’t be allowed to kill things and I would never support such an idiotic belief. What I said and what I believe are that YES dogs are predators; Yes they have the necessary equipment to kill things. Should they kill other dogs and people? NO. That comes from bad breeding and bad ownership. They should be socialized with other dogs and with people and should be trained and bred correctly. That doesn’t change my opinion about the fact that I believe them to be predators and I do believe some dogs have an instinctive prey drive. Not just pit bulls but other actual breeds of dog show that they have prey drives. Some dogs go after cats. Hopefully you’re smart enough to not bring a cat home and place it down on the floor and expect your dog to know that it’s now “part of the family”. Some dogs, like the poodle I mentioned have a drive to go after small animals like squirrels and chipmunks. If you think that domestication of dogs and specific purpose breeding has taken the prey drive and turned it into something else completely like herding instinct that’s only logical to an extent. Until the dog actually goes out and kills an animal. Even GSDs.
Now, If you want me to talk about pit bulls specifically it comes from asshole selfish people who only care about their own needs and don’t have an ounce of compassion or empathy for other living things so they use them as a way to make some guap(money) and breed them to go fight in rings and be aggressive because that’s what pays the bills. Or more likely in this day in age, they just breed any two dogs together without an ounce of care about the temperament of the dogs and that leads to consistent breeding of temperamental dogs with the potential for destruction.

Freya L said...

“I've owned 3 GSDs so far and I have seen all of them exhibit some very high form of the herding instinct at some points in their life.”
Have any of your GSDs ever shown aggression or prey drive towards a livestock animal? I’ve read about some GSDs killing livestock animals or attempting to kill livestock animals. Is that part of that herding instinct? I’m not trying to start a fight; I honestly just want your opinion. I’m sure it’s probably a rare thing when a GSD attacks an animal but I just want to know what you think causes it. Genetics, Environment, some primitive instinct to hunt live prey? Honestly just curious.

“these folk who have pits are like clones of each other........ they look alike , sound alike , spell bread not bred , never paragraph , tell us we are lonely and bored and we wish their pits would maul them (true), tell us to rescue pits not patronize breeders, they go to pit smart stores for their pit treats , think tattoo and graffiti is art , dye blue or pink stripes in their hair , dress their pits in costume at music festivals , think all knowledge comes from the internet , watch and worship cesar milan and L.A.CHOPPERS., have scars from old scateboarding accidents and jrt attacks , think most people dislike poodles, dont understand rasism or what hitler stood for , think pitbulls have sound judgement and decision making skills , think all small dogs are lethal killers and picking them up makes them worse , think pitbulls have finer feelings like pride and dignity , ...... and most of all they think pit bulls kick ass.”
It’s skate boarding not scateboarding and racism not rasism. Hitler should be capitalized. You missed the apostrophe in don’t. Pit bulls not pitbulls. Judgment not judgement. Good boy…now go run off and go back to kindergarten.
Rumpel,
“Miss Margo,

Frey is one of those "all dogs bite" pit nutters.

She probably thinks with love and affection a confirmed killer like Bones can be rehabilitated and ignores the the fact that even with years of behavior "modification" Bones will still remain a threat to any family who adopts him and anyone within striking range. If Bones is "rehabilitated" it affords him the opportunity to attack without notice and unobstructed.”
NOT TRUE. Not all dogs bite nor should they. I just believe they have the potential too. They have the equipment necessary too. And yes some are more likely too and some have more of a potential to do more damage than others.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

S.K.Y.,

GSDs are supposed to be territorial. They are more so when the owner is not home. It's a matter of a GSD being able to settle after a brief meet 'n greet.

Off property, they should be more amiable. I've run across a few stray/escaped GSDs and they either avoid me or come to greet me.

As far as GSDs being aggressive, they mostly display. I'm on my 3rd and from what I know about myself and other GSD owners, unprovoked aggression is frowned upon. It's a matter of early socialization at those predefined times which I believe you know. The typical GSD has changed over the decades. You should see a trend towards a more stable temperament over the decades. GSDs these days can still be standoffish and some would rather watch than engage in friendly play with a stranger. I do know once a GSD has accepted you, it's pretty much forever. You don't have to worry about it mauling you because you smelled like baby powder one day.

Your neighbor with the GSD are douchebags. When my dogs hear the neighbor's door knock, they go bonkers. They are allowed to bark for 5 seconds then if they don't stop, I just tell them quiet and recall them. They do not charge the fence, escape, or bolt out the door when I open it. Neither one seems concerned with my neighbors except for an occasional stop and listen. All this and it was easy to train them what is acceptable behavior in regards to the neighbors. That said, I'm pretty sure they would attack if a stranger was on my property.

As for my previous pit nutter neighbor, his dogs were terrors.

Titled GSDs are still required to perform the task of herding. This insures they still possess the ability and drive even though it's not used so much today.

You may love my smaller GSD. He's 85 lbs and very agile, but very "drivey". Does not settle so well but is usually friendly and compliant. He's gets excited so easy his hackles will stand. I thought it was aggression but found out, for him, it's just that he may be excited. Neither has the exaggerated back.

Rumpelstiltskin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rumpelstiltskin said...

Frey, "Have any of your GSDs ever shown aggression or prey drive towards a livestock animal?"

All GSDs should show some prey drive. More than likely, their herding instinct should turn on. All 3 of my GSDs have acted on their herding drive which is based or derived from prey drive.

For a GSD to be introduced to livestock and attempt to kill is unacceptable.

My first GSD caught a cat and let it go when it screamed. My 3rd GSD, so popular with the birds and will chase, display, and even growled at a larger one who looked like it was staring at him, found a baby bird that fell out of a nest. He smelled it, never even touched it. He was on top of it long before I went to investigate and had plenty of time to kill it.

It's not just the bite Freya. It's the reason behind the bite. I don't know of a GSD who's mauled someone the way a pit bull does. Apparently, Sky witnessed a GSD maul someone and rather than take a chance for him to maul someone else, they had him put to sleep. Pit nutters are always about excuses and rehabilitation, including Bones the man killer.

If one of my dogs mauled someone unprovoked, he would have 2 seconds to let go or I'll start beating the shit out of my own dog. Unlike pit nutters I'm not afraid of my own dogs.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Freya, "First of all, I never said to not be surprised if they kill. Don’t put words in my mouth."

You imply it from all your comments. All dogs this, dogs are predators who are descendants of wolves.

"All other breeds" don't do what pit bulls do.

DubV said...

"I’m in my mid-20s, still attending college. I have a degree in Psychology and I’m attending medical school with the future goal in mind of becoming a Psychiatrist."

Scary shit.

Freya L said...

Rumpel,

“It's not just the bite Freya. It's the reason behind the bite. I don't know of a GSD who's mauled someone the way a pit bull does. Apparently, Sky witnessed a GSD maul someone and rather than take a chance for him to maul someone else, they had him put to sleep. Pit nutters are always about excuses and rehabilitation, including Bones the man killer.”

I completely understand that. As far as bite statistics and what can set them off to attack, they’re highly unpredictable. I don’t agree with the fact people make excuses and try to rehabilitate aggressive dogs. Someone made a really good point about all the normal non aggressive dogs that need homes and how the rescuing and adopting out of dangerous dogs could affect the overall rate in which people actually rescue from shelters and that’s a very good point. Not to mention the inherent risk of that dog attacking again or maybe even having something escalate and result in the death of an innocent life.

Trust me; I don’t want dogs like Bones to exist. Ultimately, something needs to change. Something needs to be done. They shouldn’t be bred; it’s just too many bad breeders, too many uneducated owners. It is dangerous. I understand that, I don’t deny it.


“You imply it from all your comments. All dogs this, dogs are predators who are descendants of wolves.

"All other breeds" don't do what pit bulls do.”

I don’t imply it, you just assume that’s what I mean by what I’m saying when it’s not.

dawn james said...

some kooks were claiming to have psych degrees on occupy maul street too. hmmm.

Fuck you delete my post. I have personal information I don't want on there. You have the right to say whatever you want on your damn blog. Delete the post that list my hometown and leave the others if you want. I don't care. Call me nutters. I'm taking Psychology classes at a college...what kind of education have you had. Like I said, bloggers are more nuerotic than the average person. That means your more self concious, you have more depression and anxiety issues, and you have other emotional problems more so than the average person. So good luck with that, hopefully you can go see someone and get some help for that and fix yourself :) now delete my post...or I promise I'll have your blog removed so fast from this website it won't even be funny. I don't want my personal information on here and as soon as that post is deleted I'll leave you the hell alone. Thank you.

while i agree with mst of what you are saying anon. I have one problem though. I guess you would classify me as a hick. i am fro a small town in N>C> Although I do own dogs I have never fought one, seen one fought,or even heard about one locally. I nor any of my friends believe in cruelty to animals and i would get a dog off of the side of the rd. Dead of alive it would not stay on the side of the rd. As a matter of fact all of my animals are rescue animals. I have a degree in Psychology and I speak four languages,Latin being one of them. I have spent most of my life working with animal,I am 32.DO YOU STILL CONSIDER ME A HICK?

Branwyne Finch said...

LOL,SKY, I don't doubt what you say is true. I know several folks who have gotten rid of their GSD for the very reason that the dog "wouldn't let anyone in the house". The interesting thing I find about the types of people attracted to GSD, is that if they got the dog as a pet, and it goes on to exhibit really dangerous behavior, most seem to get rid of it.

I'm sorry you haven't met many nice ones, (and LOL about the shedding, that is very true!) I have known several in my lifetime. As a child, there was one who lived around the corner, and was the constant companion of a little girl. He went everywhere with her, and hung out with all the neighborhood kids. But one day some neighborhood bully started picking on her, and got in her face...the dog leapt up, and got between them, and lets just say that NO one ever picked on her again. The dog never hurt anyone, but everyone knew he wouldn't stand for anyone harming his little master.

I brought my car for service a few months ago, and the woman at the desk had a picture of a beautiful GSD...I remarked on it, and she told me about this dog. From the time he was young, every night before he went to sleep, he came upstairs and went into everyone's bedroom, to do his "bedcheck", say goodnight, and make sure all his people were safe. His first stop was always her young son's room.

Now the dog is old, lame and blind, and the little boy is off at college....but every night, the poor old dog drags himself up the stairs..feeling along the wall to find his way. His first stop is always her son's room, where he goes over to the bed and looks for his boy. He stops briefly, and looks sadly at the empty bed, hoping to find his boy... then continues on to say goodnight to her and her husband. She teared up telling me this.

My friend told me of a family friend whose GSD was his constant companion...if he went away on vacation, and left the dog with family, she would pine away, refuse to eat. He took her everywhere with him, and when she died, he was heartbroken, and kept her ashes. This man died tragically in an accident, and when they buried him, his family insisted the dogs ashes be buried with him. They were inseparable in life, now, too in death.

My favorite GSD was the one I described earlier...he was owned by my groomer, and was used to screen dogs that came to her dog daycare. He was gorgeous, smart, and loved people and other animals....he was totally bomb-proof, the whole package. I remember coming in to drop my dog off, and him greeting me... I loved cuppping that big, wolf-like face in my hands and kissing him on his forehead.

Miss Margo said...

I call bullshit.

If Freya's in med school, I'll eat my shorts.

Med school doesn't require a lot of critical thinking skill, but it does take a certain type of personality (IQ and monk-like OCD), and this chick doesn't have it. And do you know what it takes to get into med school...? Even the "worst" med school in the country? I couldn't get into med school, and I've got a master's and did well on the GRE!

And the med students I've met hardly have time to do their laundry, much less type pages-long screeds on pit bull war blogs.

Even on winter break.

If Freya's in medicine, I say nursing (shudder) or dental hygienist.

And Psych, spare me! There's tons of great stuff in psych, I study it recreationally myself, but there's a reason why it's one of the most popular undergrad majors and why every football player in America is getting a degree in it. Psych has some brilliant science and theory but the shallow end is pretty fucking shallow. Quite a gap between BF Skinner and Evo Psych.

What percentage of med students majored in psych? I need to look this up.

Miss Margo said...

Love that Occupy Maul Street comment, Dawn.

That nutter was really certifiable. I'm the one who left that anonymous comment at the end telling him to go to the campus health clinic and talk to someone. I was really worried for him.

Branwyne Finch said...

So....ehhh...Freya, you feel compelled to be here because "someone is wrong on the internet" and you feel it's your obligation to set them straight?


That's really not a good investment of your time....if you had said, "I thought the discussion was interesting, and some of the posters made interesting points, and I wanted to offer my opinion on the subject as well, because I enjoy a good debate." That would have made sense.

But feeling it's your duty to lecture people on the internet with far greater knowledge, education, and experience than you have on a particular subject is an exercise in futility.

Jim said...

Med school and a B.S Psych? Bullshit. Not with her grammar. Not to mention her reading comprehension.

Read this again, Freya:
"there is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a facultative carnivore from an omnivore"



Here are some ranked and nationally competitive GSD's ;)
MACH5 Emblaze Van Meerhout MXG2 MJG2 MXF TQX

MACH6 Felix Von Der Eisenkaute CD MXC2 MJC2 MXF MFB TQX T2B

CH MACH4 Kaleef's Divine V Kenlyn CD RE MXB2 MJB2

MACH9 Misty Blue MXS3 MJC3 MXF TQX

MACH6 Y'Caeli Of Turkey Hill CDX

MXB3 MJB3 NAP FTC1 MFC TQX T2B

Here is my favorite bitch in the working dog world:

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/caliber.htm

Solid GSD are out there. You just have to weed through the chaff to find the wheat :)

Miss Margo said...

Jim:

What's a "ratio?"



....JUST KIDDING!

lol lol lol

couldn't help it

Miss Margo said...

Wow, Jim, I took a look at Raven, that black GSD you linked to...what a beautiful dog!

April 29, thanks for the info on poodles.

april 29 said...

Freya,

I'm going to make the same comment to you here that I have made to you on another blog. Make your comments short and get to to the point for God's sake. Bless Miss Margo, DubV and Jim for wading through your essays.

My eyes begin to roll after the first few lines but I did note that you went back to one of your favorite themes, Poodles. You are clueless. Child, Poodles are NOT known for high prey drive and killing small animals. Poodles are retrievers repackaged into cheerful and elegant companions. I think you are thinking of JRTs here.

The possibility has been raised that you are a nursing student but I would not put much faith in that one. When I was in nursing school I didn't have the kind of time it takes to generate the comments you leave on multiple blogs.

"I’m in my mid-20s, still attending college. I have a degree in Psychology and I’m attending medical school with the future goal in mind of becoming a Psychiatrist."

Scary shit." I'm with you on this one DubV.

Putme Incharge said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Putme Incharge said...

Freya said- ""... I’m attending medical school with the future goal in mind of becoming a Psychiatrist."

Physician heal thyself.

On another note, I have a friend who works in emergency services. Two pit bull attacks in the area in two days. The first one a woman attacked in her own yard by her two pit bulls. On the incident yesterday there were no other details except the dog climbed over a fence to get to the person it attacked. Neither of these attacks made it to our local newspaper.

I can not imagine how much higher pit bull attack statistics would be if all incidents were actually reported.

As for GSD's and performing, for the last 14 years I have been very good friends with someone who has owned and bred some of the most accomplished performing GSD's in the country, including the #1 performance producing dam. Currently 3 of her four dogs have PAM's and she has the youngest GSD to ever have achieved that award.

Her dogs are titled in herding,agility, obedience, and some other things I have not paid much attention to.
Her dogs have excellent structure as well. As for health all her breeding dogs are on the CHIC list, she does every genetic test there is for her dogs before they go into her breeding program. If someone wants the entire package in a dog- brains and beauty- they are out there. Apparently there are many just on this board alone. One might just have to look outside their own backyard to find one.

S.K.Y. said...

Hi everybody,

Thanks for the good GSD stories. A lot of my "hater" instincts have to do with seeing so many during in-home aggression consultations. That whole career was like volunteering to "almost be mauled" several times a week, and had the effect of souring me on ALL dogs (temporarily) and GSDs longer term.

Jim, thanks for the great list of competent agility GSDs. Please put me on the record as totally retracting my erroneous statement that no GSDs are competitive in agility. A MACH9 GSD (and other multi-MACHs) had my chin dropping to the floor. Excellent! I'm glad to see that there are people out there preserving the previously great speed/agility of the breed.

So my ammended statement is: In the areas in which I have competed in agility (MO/WI), I haven't seen any good GSDs. (And it's rare to see any at all, good or bad). But from your list, it's obvious that in other parts of the country, agility GSDs are a force to be reckoned with.

Also, I mentioned that you almost never see GSDs that can herd competitively. However, I do know of a breeder/handler from Florida who has excellent herding GSDs. She came to an AKC trial in Missouri--one of the major hotbeds of herding competition in the world (USBCHA, AHBA and AKC are all big there)--and won High In Trial from the Advanced class against dozens of Border Collies.

o they are out there. I just hope those dogs are being bred, and the crippled fear-biters that I had the bad luck to run into have the decency to get out of the gene pool. :-)

Jim said...

There are GSD breeders/owners trying to get back the herding reputation. Part of the problem is that their style of herding is very different from BC's, who dominate in that venue.

I am hopeful the breed can be pulled back from the brink and I am seeing great strides in that area.

A huge part of the problem is their popularity. #2 registered breed. So very many back yard breeders who are producing absolute shit bred dogs.

Labradors have the same problem but since their temperament is so very different the number of labs with bad temperaments is smaller. But they are out there. I am always wary of chocolates because due to fad breeding for color they do seem to comprise the majority of human aggressive labs.

Health is another issue. Were I to rank what are, imo, the unhealthiest breeds #1 would be the Doberman #2 Golden Retrievers #3 GSD

Mind you there are breeds with even more health problems, but among "popular" breeds these are, again imo, the big three. DCM, cancer, and DM are not on the same par as HD, eye disorders, LP, and ED. Those are debilitating, but the issues plaguing the big three are outright killers. When you have average life expectancy down around 7 years of age in breeds that should be easily living 12-14 years, that is a huge problem.

Dobe and GSD's will find coming back a tad easier as there are now health screening tools and tests for their diseases. The rate of cancer, in particular hemangiosarcoma, in Goldens is terrifying.

And I am seeing more and more bad temperament in the breed.

orangedog said...

If she's in med school and makes it to "Dr." then she may get to experience pit victims injuries first hand. Don't forget to tell your patients how they must have provoked Mr. Pittie!

snarky said...

thanx freya , i stand corrected. nutters always do say bread instead of bred , though , and i dont know why . they also usually have degrees in pitterine dingbattery . fuck, i wouldnt want one of you working on me in a medical capacity or scaling my teeth even.

Miss Margo said...

FYI April, when I wrote "nursing(shudder)," what I meant was that I found the idea of Freya working in a nursing capacity to be shudder-inducing. I certainly didn't mean that nursing itself was shudder-inducing.

I know you probably don't think that. I just wanted to be clear.

Nursing is an important and demanding profession and I have a lot of respect for it.

april 29 said...

I got your drift Miss Margo. I find the thought of pitter nurses as shudder inducing as you do.

S.K.Y. said...

Miss Margo,

I, for one, took your nursing comment in the manner in which you intended it. That it would be shudder-inducing to think of a pit nutter in this respected and high-responsibility position. :-)

Jim,

More good points on GSDs and other breeds. You're totally right about seeing more Goldens with temperament issues, as well as them ranking highly in fatal heritable diseases.

I show in conformation, as well as many other sports, but I find many conformation breeding practices abominable and would like to see them changed. For anybody who is interested in problems resulting from current show breeding, I highly recommend my second-favorite-blog-in-the-world after Craven, "Pedigree Dogs Exposed Blog": http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com. You can see the two documentaries produced by the blogger for free on YouTube--they are famous in the UK but almost unknown here.

If you look through the posts, you can find total gems showing research into longevity, the effects of even moderate inbreeding, etc.

I'm behind Jemima 100%. She is not against breeding or against purebreds. But she is against breeding for looks when it affects the health of the dog (such as Pugs not being able to breathe well)... she is against over-exaggerations (droopy eyelids and skin folds hanging to the floor in Bassetts), is FOR breeding for a purpose (Bassetts who still hunt with professional hunt clubs... and look like they did in the 1800's)... and is FOR Kennel Clubs allowing controlled outcrossings to other breeds to maintain genetic diversity and to get back "good genes" that have been lost.

For the latter, please watch her film. There's the example of Dalmatians in the UK virtually all carrying or having a particular fatal genetic condition. After years of petitioning by a small group of responsible breeders, the Kennel Club allowed one Dalmatian--a carrier--to be bred to a another breed (Pointer, I think) that doesn't have this genetic condition. Only pups that were not carriers were used for breeding. They were bred back to other Dalmatians, and again, only the non-carrier puppies were later bred. None of these dogs were registerable. Around the third or fourth generation, the dogs were overwhelmingly made up of Dalmatian genes, and all looked exactly like Dalmatians. As they had planned in advance, the UK Kennel Club allowed that generation and subsequent generations to be registered as purebred Dalmatians, even though they contained a little bit of Pointer. However, due to that little bit of Pointer and testing of subsequent breeding dogs, that line is now the only line of Dalmatians in the UK that is completely free of the genetic defect. And other lines are breeding to it and using the non-affected puppies to "fix" their own bloodlines. A big success story.

I would LOVE to see more outbreeding allowed in controlled settings. This is commonly allowed in working dog registries. Many Border Collies have a Bearded Collie ancestor who was a top-notch herding trial dog in the UK in the mid 20th century. And many Jack Russells have blood from other terrier breeds, such as Patterdales and Lakelands. This definitely makes for a genetically more vigorous and longer lived breed. However, the AKC and KC have extreme issues with ever doing a single outcross, even to save breeds from fatal genetic diseases. It took YEARS for the Dalmatian people to have their small success.

Branwyne Finch said...

Jim...

Holy cow, and thanks for sharing Raven's pedigree. What an amazing list of accomplishments, both in protection sports AND obedience. But here is the part of her profile that caught my eye....

"Always ready and willing to work, Raven is an exceptional house dog who also knows when it is time to turn it off and cuddle up on the couch in front of the TV for a quiet evening. Though naturally protective, she is always open and social with welcome guests, fantastic with other dogs and animals, and head-over-heels in love with every child she meets. These are traits which we value highly as we strive for a balanced dog and believe that correct German Shepherd temperament makes for exceptional companions as well as working dogs and a good GSD is a dog who can excel at both."

I believe it is intelligence that allows a high drive dog like this to both excell at protection sports, and also excell as a family pet and companion. I think this is what a "real" GSD is, and I can't think of many other breeds that combine such power, beauty, intelligence, and affection into one package. I understand why owners develop such a life altering bond with them.

Again, thanks for sharing.


dawn james said...

regarding med schools:
there are huge differences in med schools. is nutter in a med school listed in the top 100 best? is nutter even in a FIRST world med school? how do we know she is not typing out these comments from her haiti dorm room?

regarding psych work:
as someone who spent over a decade working in different capacities in different settings, i can say with absolute certainty that the majority of people who choose to work in the field are trying to work out their own issue. that is true at the lowest and highest levels and everywhere in between.

regarding the diet thread:
fucking pit nutters want to lump all degrees of bites, punctures, gashes, maulings, amputations and fatalities into one category called bites and then nick pick 50%, 70% 100% carnivores.
WTF?

"Bless Miss Margo, DubV and Jim for wading through your essays."
DITTO!

dawn james said...

future freya?

DubV said...

"Now the dog is old, lame and blind, and the little boy is off at college....but every night, the poor old dog drags himself up the stairs..feeling along the wall to find his way. His first stop is always her son's room, where he goes over to the bed and looks for his boy. He stops briefly, and looks sadly at the empty bed, hoping to find his boy... then continues on to say goodnight to her and her husband. She teared up telling me this."

Branwyne, if I wore make up, you would have just ruined it. ;)

DubV said...

Average students can get into med school if they are willing to go to another country to do (such as an island near the US).

I know of a person who did this, flunked her boards, lied, got a job and then got caught and fired.

DubV said...

" I couldn't get into med school, and I've got a master's and did well on the GRE!"

You're obviously bright enough to get in, Miss Margo. It takes a relatively above average intellect and a massive time commitment to get all As (or nearly so) in undergrad and then 6 months or so to prep for the MCAT (probably the hardest standardized test that exists). I wouldn't sell your abilities short in that area.

Freya L said...

Dawn,
Technically that person claimed to be taking Psych. classes in college. That’s not the same thing as having an actual degree. I won’t lie, most people go into the liberal arts because it probably one of the easier majors. Actually, at this point with the economy being the way that it is a lot of liberal arts majors aren’t finding work when they get out of school anyways. Probably one of the better majors would be something involving technology since that’s constantly advancing.

Branwyne,
“So....ehhh...Freya, you feel compelled to be here because "someone is wrong on the internet" and you feel it's your obligation to set them straight?


That's really not a good investment of your time....if you had said, "I thought the discussion was interesting, and some of the posters made interesting points, and I wanted to offer my opinion on the subject as well, because I enjoy a good debate." That would have made sense.

But feeling it's your duty to lecture people on the internet with far greater knowledge, education, and experience than you have on a particular subject is an exercise in futility.”

No, I occasionally come on here and read various things that I find interesting. I actually had thought the discussion was interesting, I did offer my opinion about various things that had NOTHING to do with pit bulls in any way, shape or form. I came back on here and found comments basically attacking me for feeding raw and everything in between and it all goes back to pit bulls. The reality is I never posted with the intention of talking about pit bulls nor educating anyone. My first post ONLY had something to do with reputable breeders.
I’m starting to wonder why no one on here acknowledges that fact. The fact that my original comments never even had anything to do with pit bulls. It's like they're brain can't process that one simple fact.

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