Saturday, January 18, 2014

Bloomington, Illinois 150 miles NE of Ledy

LEDY, i thought you and JANE and the evil genius KAREN DELISE, would like to see the latest results of your handiwork.

obviously these killers were not chained, not starved, not abused, not neglected, not trained to fight, not deprived of affection, not deprived of positive interaction but loved cherished family members.



























and an honorable mention to that coward in the white house too.

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can't even put into words how I feel about this one. Can we please have BSL to stop parents from making this mistake? Pit bulls are high risk dogs. It's time to STOP pretending they're not!

Anyone that's against BSL, is for these tragedies happening over and over again. Anyone that fights for people to be able to own these hideous creatures has blood on their hands.

Sputnik2009 said...

I think you're right, Ledy, Jane and Karen will be happy to see the latest results of their handiwork -- but not for the reason any sane person would imagine.

I'm expecting that every time gripping bulldogs kill yet another person, preferably yet another child, the three of them have a little Happy-Party. To celebrate death, but even more to celebrate the fact that they're so powerful they even have the President of the Untied States approving of this carnage.

Meals on Wheels said...

What is it they always write....

WINNING?

Rhea Luna said...

How many of these kids died and why so many of these dogs? I am seriously emotional because of pregnancy. So I can't think of proper words. My heart hurts.

Rhea Luna said...

I thought of an appropriate response
These parents had other choices.
They are modern people so there is no excuse for not doing more to prevent this. Why do people lack critical thinking skills? There are two sides to every story. They bought the hype and made their kids pay the price. My heart hurts so bad. Why did these children have to die for a breed not worth saving? What quality do pit dogs possess that draw normal people to them? They maim maul kill fight and are unsightly.
My husband wanted one but with research and realizing that things didn't add up with the nutter tales we dug deeper. And it didn't take some crazy searching either. Google is your friend. Perhaps not for every aspect. But for simple decisions like pets Google is handy. If you were doing medical research id say look in books and learn your library's reference section.
Here is what I put in merely weeks before we would adopt the breed we felt pitty for:
Are pitbulls dangerous?
Are pitbulls good for kids?
And statistics on dog bites.

Wow! Hard work right? Guess what sites I was led to? Dogsbite and the truth about pitbulls
Then craven desires.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at statistics from the cdc.
After only a dozen newspaper articles and enough victims
I said no way.
And my husband agreed.
We got a Chihuahua
He vacuumed after the kids and bit nothing.
Across the road from us was a psycho Chihuahua
Who ran out of his yard and
Viciously
Growled at my husband til my husband turned around and she submitted.
Oooh big scary. I hate how stupid nutters compare tiny dogs to pitbulls. Fuck I hate when they compare any dog to pitbulls.
I will never understand why people dont do more research before bringing an animal into their abode. I am getting a normal dog....in 2 years. I am buying books (gasp) on a few different breeds and (gasp) reading what I can and looking into the local veterinary opinions on the breed I select. Then I am going to talk to the breed advocates about pros and cons and any breed who has advocates that make them sound infallible that breed will be removed from my choices.
And ask my insurance what kind of coverage they require for my breed or if my breed is covered. Because I worked for insurance. Being denied for a dog bite claim is almost as devastating as the bites. The calls that come in for pitbull bites and damages are chilling and heart wrenching because we have to read the script and we have to hear them sobbing.

Tell me every dog is the same. Tell me that lie. I've cried for victims in my break room.

These parents that dont think twice before bringing animals near their human children need slapped over the head and need a wake up call...wake up!

tropical storms said...

Throughout the written history of bulldogs dogmen considered them to be most potentially dangerous when well fed and exercised. Read the old histories, bulldogs at peak of their keep are considered "sharp", "edgy", "bold", "snappish", etcetera. Increasing the attention, quality of food and more exercise than they get sitting on a chain seems to make these dogs more likely to bite humans not less.

Rhea Luna said...

I looked up the story. As I said totally preventable.
There will be countless assholes who say the little girl provoked the brutal attack but won't be able to explain what one child....one small child could do to incite such horror. What could a 4 year old do that would justify the brutality? What other breed....other normal breed would be influenced in such a way as to go full retard like this? I owned a Chihuahua and my mom owns a mini daschund. My kids are loud at times and because the cold keeps us inside they are bored and rambunctious. They've never been bitten by two small dogs that pitbull advocates hate the most. The doxie is almost 10 and he has growled when the baby pulled his hair but he also walked away and I corrected my child. Most dogs warn. Most dogs walk away. These parents need to be an example to the community and be thrown in jail. Sorry but if one my kids accidentally got into the bleach and were hospitalized id have the rest removed and at minimum be put through parenting classes. This is unacceptable and these parents need to be the example. How many more kids will die because their parents make awful choices about pets? I say the same for any parent whose child "Plays" with their gun and shoots dead another sibling. Responsible parents dont end up with dead kids from preventable tragedies. Its one thing for accidents to happen but another when simple common sense needs to take place and didn't.

Rhea Luna said...

That is very interesting and brings light to why pitbulls in "loving" families usually eat their own "families"

tropical storms said...

As I've said before I grew up with working guard dogs. Our parents never thought twice about leaving us alone with our dogs because they were not a threat to us, just to anyone who would harm us. I should add that they were extremely well trained and under voice control. Funny that dogs bred and trained to attack humans at need never got confused about their jobs, never displayed aggression toward other animals or invited guests. Had one ever behaved in such fashion it would have been euthanized immediately.

dawn james said...

thank you tropical storms for mentioning the effort dogmen went to to increase the lethality of pit bulls. you missed out on a scottish nutter who showed up here to chastise us for hate and bigotry. this is a direct quote from EILIDH SOMERVILLE:
Here in Scotland there have been cases of people injecting their Staffordshire Bull Terriers with heroin to make them aggressive. If those dogs were such monsters to begin with then why would they need heroin to be aggressive? Why do the Pit Bull owners who fight their dogs or use them to intimidate others starve their dogs, keep them chained up and beat them up? Surely those dogs wouldn't need such treatment to be aggressive.


"They've never been bitten by two small dogs that pitbull advocates hate the most."

rhea, i don't know whether to laugh, cry or scream when nutters fall down that rabbit hole.

dawn james said...

the dark triad will blame the following:

1) testicles
2) leaving kids & dogs alone together
3) no able bodied adult to intervene

#3 has been recently been presented in the latest edition of junk science by AFF/NCRC. funny thing about pit bulldogs, there really is no such thing as an able bodied adult.

I didn’t used to see much danger in one that was vicious, I knew a Bulldog could hurt a man but I don’t think I realized how bad, I wasn’t afraid of one. Now I’m a lot more wary of a maneater, they really can hurt you, even kill you. I honestly don’t believe that a grown man could get a sixty-five pound Bulldog off without a weapon, if it decided to attack him.
LESTER HUGHES, Old Mountain Man Kennels

Rhea Luna said...

Usually I swear and turn beet red. All normal breeds ive ever heard of warn many times. My grandads English cockerspaniel (not mixed with shitbull) was aging and she growled a few times when frustrated with whatever and always walked away and one time She snipped with her front teeth. Ever get one of those blood tests for protein where they prick your finger and a little blood pools out? Wtf are they called? It felt like that minus the blood. I didn't provoke she was old and I pet her but I reached out toward her face which is a known no no.
I wouldn't have a hand had it been a pitbull but they cant draw conclusions that are reasonable. They make stupid connections. Illogical connections.

Rhea Luna said...

Although I dont blame the parents for the same reason they do I do place blame on the parents. They are completely responsible because the little girl would be alive playing and learning and going to kindergarten in the fall if these clueless individuals didnt bring these dogs to their home.

Rhea Luna said...

And I hold all pro pit advocates responsible for their misinformation.

DubV said...

For Delise et al, the primary irresponsible act is not having a land mine in the center of your living room with children present.

The primary irresponsible act is not maintaining the land mine properly and/or watching the children around it like a hawk.

It's very hard for most people to admit when they are wrong. Delise et al just won't bring themselves to it.

What a horrible and common human foible. We should be delighted when we realize something and mend our thought patterns to bring them in line with reality.

“I have previously told the story of a respected elder statesman of the Zoology Department at Oxford when I was an undergraduate. For years he had passionately believed, and taught, that the Golgi Apparatus (a microscopic feature of the interior of cells) was not real… Every Monday afternoon it was the custom for the whole department to listen to a research talk by a visiting lecturer. One Monday, the visitor was an American cell biologist who presented completely convincing evidence that the Golgi Apparatus was real. At the end of the lecture, the old man strode to the front of the hall, shook the American by the hand and said – with passion – ‘My dear fellow, I wish to thank you. I have been wrong these fifteen years.’”

-Richard Dawkins

Branwyne Finch said...

I honestly don't know why it is so hard to comprehend that these dogs have inherited a predisposition toward aggressive behavior. There are scientific studies that show that HUMANS with a variant of the MAOA gene are more likely to engage in anti-social, aggressive behavior. There are several scientific studies which confirm the genetic origins of behavior in people....from risk taking behavior to shyness, there is an increased understanding that some temperament traits are hard wired.

So why would a domesticated animal, selectively bred for the specific trait of explosive aggression, NOT be expected to exhibit these traits? With all the in-breeding and line breeding done with these dogs, it would be logical that they would be far more likely than other dogs to have inherited a dangerous temperament.

Do these parents also believe that the earth is flat? How many dead kids will it take before the public demands some common sense regulation? Why are parents allowed to walk away with no charges after placing their children in such an obviously dangerous environment?

And why did the parents NOT ask that the dogs be euthanized immediately? Was the death of their daughter not traumatic enough?

Garnet said...

This tragedy would not have occurred had the owners chosen almost any other breed of dog. Even if the child was somehow annoying the dog, normal dogs will give a warning - a bark, a growl, or a snap. Or, the dog will get up and leave. A pit bull, on the other hand, can launch into a sustained, violent attack with no warning. They can do that for no reason. They aren't pets, for fuck's sake. How many more people have to die before these crazy pit bull promoters admit to that fact?

Garnet

Dayna Hamilton said...

I keep hoping I will never read again of the preventable murder of a child by a pit bull or mix. Every time I do my heart is rendered and I wonder, like Branwyn Finch said, how many more have to die before something is done? Generally I'm against adding more legislation and heavy handed laws to our overwhelmed system, but there is no such thing as a responsible owner when it comes to fighting breeds of dogs. So there is zero self regulation in the pit community. It needs to be enacted and forced onto them.

Garnet said...

Exactly Dayna. The pit community is totally useless and their overall response to the fact that their breed mauls and kills more than all other breeds combined is to shut their eyes, plug their ears, and deny everything. Then, they make up blatant lies to cover everything up.
(e.g. "nanny dogs," mauling pit bulls have been misidentified, etc.)

Anonymous said...

And people wonder why I give nasty looks to the woman at the school bus stop who insists on bringing her pit to pick up her kid. Her pit who is ill behaved, hyper, and not wearing a collar, a thin chain lead looped around it's neck that goes slack in the rare moments when it sits the fuck down.

I hope I never have to pull the hunting knife I keep in my coat but every time something like this happens I'm less convinced I'm never going to need it.

God I hate these fucking dogs.

Ka D said...

Tropical Storms: You're exactly spot on-the more confident a pit bull is the more likely it is to exercise its BREED SPECIFIC behavior-to attack someone unprovoked. Here is the study that proves it: "Pit bulls do not attack due to anxiety or lack of positive associations and trust. They do not attack because of resource guarding. They attack because they have a genetically determined, strongly heritable brain dysfunction."..."The idea that you can socialize a pit bull to be a peace-loving dog is a fairy tale. In the past thirty years, I have seen people try this experiment again and again. They get a pit bull puppy, determined to prove that if only you raise them kindly and socialize them with other dogs, the pit bull will turn out to be just like any other dog. This has every single time resulted in tragedy." http://monkeybutlerinvasion.com/media/semyonova-response-to-marmeladov.pdf How and why training and socialization fails in pit bulls.

tropical storms said...

Thanks La D. This information was given to me as simply common knowledge by dogfighters back in the day. Dogs not in keep were left more or less alone with the exception of feeding and cleaning their chain space. Dogs in keep were given constant attention, high quality feed, lots of exercise and time in the house just hanging out with the conditioner. All the pros would caution you about a dog in keep being extra sharp and "bitey". It's a shame the petbull morons hate the reality of the breed to the point of refusing to learn from the experts. Another fun fact is that dogmen (and women) rarely had a bulldog as a pet. Some bulldogs certainly were retired to house dog status but that was the exception rather than the rule.

tropical storms said...

Obviously the Ka D. Stupid browser.

Sputnik2009 said...

DubV, the psychopathic trio doesn't have to admit they're wrong -- because they're not. They know perfectly well that they're promoting killers. They know perfectly that they're lying and that all their 'science' is stinking junk.

I believe the bets for them were and are:
1) politicians, scientists and academics are totally corruptible;
2) the general public is moronic and vain;
3) the general public will swallow any well-packaged lie and will follow any idiotic fashion if only that lie and the fashion appeal to its vanity;
4) our psychopathic manipulation skills are up to the task of getting one or more killers into every American home.

The psychopathic trio is proving right on most points, so they have nothing to admit to being wrong about.

IMO the greatest shame is on the heads of their target group in 1) above, and most of all on the academics and 'scientists'. We all to some extent expect politicians to be avaricious, vain, and not very intelligent (which isn't the same as being sly) and to let money determine how they vote. The academics and 'scientists' succumbed (I think) purely to vanity. Yes, there are quite a few not-very-smarts among those; but I doubt even the not-very-smart academics and 'scientists' are stupid enough to really believe (for example) that the laws of evolution and natural / artificial selection don't apply to the bulldog.

I could rant on, but my point is: I don’t see what the sick trio would have to admit they’re wrong about. They've certainly proven their hypothesis about who is eager to go whoring, and that you don't even need money so much as an appeal to vanity to get that crowd to flop happily onto its back.

Sputnik2009 said...

@ Dayna Hamilton: "Generally I'm against adding more legislation and heavy handed laws to our overwhelmed system..."

Exactly! The strange thing is that a lot of politicians claim to agree with this standpoint -- but then they are suddenly willing to pass state laws that prohibit the smaller communities in their state from deciding for themselves whether they want their children killed by bulldog types.

Isn't that Bigger Government dictating to Smaller Government how local people will live? Shouldn't local people be able to decide for themselves 'not in our town'?

There's a reason politicians sneak these state laws through rather than -- if there must be a vote -- putting the question to referendum. See the sick trio's bet number 1) in my comment above.

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

Garnet said...
"This tragedy would not have occurred had the owners chosen almost any other breed of dog. Even if the child was somehow annoying the dog, normal dogs will give a warning - a bark, a growl, or a snap. Or, the dog will get up and leave...."

You are exactly right.
Because as the nutters are fond of saying in cases of dog on dog attacks "the other dog started it but the pit bull finished it"
So even if this poor child made some small transgression (or not) once its demonic genetics kicked in that was it. Unlike a normal dog who would give a warning and be done, a pit bull has no off switch.

I am sickened by all the photos of the dogs with those children. The big brown one looks particularly reptilian in the photo with the baby on the blanket.

I am sure at some point these folks proclaimed their dogs nanny dogs.

One has to wonder if these folks have been pumping out litters of these killers into the community. Perhaps that is the reason they did not call for their immediate euthanizing as it would be detrimental to their income.

When are people going to realize these are not pets. These are monsters.

Anonymous said...

I'm puzzled by the third to last photo. What is that unexplained shadow just above the baby's knee? It looks like a continuation of the pit's dewclaw, but why is it on top of a baby's leg? And why does the baby's leg, atop a dog leg, look like a poor drawing? No displacement of mass or fabric. Please, someone explain?


Anonymous said...

It's quite possible the dog moved while the picture was taken. The other possibility is that it's a stain. Either way, it is a little strange looking.

Opalina said...

They look like a nice family. Looks like they love their children, but unfortunately they love pit bulls, too. Will they learn from this horrible tragedy? How many times did they defend the breed? Are those words haunting them now? Or are they finding something, anything, to cling to to justify the horrible deed from their beloved breed?

I have read some ridiculous excuses given by the nutterborg as to why pibble attacks. We've all read them, heard them on video reports, gagged on them in the comments section. I would say Karen Delise gets the prize for most cockamamie excuse of the Universe -- cabin fever. But the ignorant nutters are jumping on a new one with this DBRF -- messy house. Yes, they look at these photos and problaim, "Do you SEE the conditions those dogs were living in????" Yes, toys strewn about is now a reason for pittie to kill. Good Heavens, better put that laundry up now!

snarky said...


LOL : another thing you need to do to keep your pet dog from killing your children ....keep a tidy house . fuck its amazing the screwy things nutters come up with.

Opalina said...

Ledy, Karen, Jane, the whole lot them -- they could not care less about the victims of these beasts. All they care about are the stupid dogs, and they prove that time and time again. Karen will proclaim these are not pit bulls because she doesn't have a piece of paper proving they are, and her "vet" will say she can't identify them in these pictures, and maybe even we will see her adding "messy house" to that self-serving study they just came out with about all of the common factors in pit attacks. Hell is waiting for them.

tropical storms said...

I don't think they really care anything about the dogs. They care about their self image and those things (bulldogs, etc) that enhance their vision of themselves. Of course it doesn't hurt if they bring in money, that would actually help validate the self perceived "goodness" and "justness" of their cause.

Anonymous said...

If a messy house is all it takes for a pit bull to berserk, how does it explain why so many attacks take place outside?

Anonymous said...

The pit bull promoters would have us believe all dogs are equally prone to this violence; except that tiny dogs are the worst. They try to imply that ever death by pit bull was really the mis-identification of the dog combined with the media's conspiracy to hide all those deaths by Golden Retrievers, Border Collies and Beagles ect...

Anonymous said...

I think that much of the appeal of pit bulls is the need for continual rationalizations. How luxurious it must be to burp out any idiocy and have squadrons of cheerleaders instantly applauding and rehearsing. Rah.

Anonymous said...

The fave cheerleader chant at my high school...

"Look to the left!
Look to the right!
Stand up, sit down, fight fight fight!"

I revealed this treasure as the vet staff and myself were pulling porcupine quills from a sedated dog. Hundreds of them. I still laugh at the remembered look of puzzlement on the vet's face. "STAND up, SIT down, FIGHT, FIGHT FIGHT...?"
Some glories just don't travel well.

Rhea Luna said...

If all dogs are the same and these pitbulls went full retard because I guess now pitbulls have ocd...how come my moms doxie is lazy as hell and doesnt budge when there are toys on our floor and laundry needs to be folded? They cant explain why no other breed of dog even dogs who live in boarder situations. ...attack and at that attack to kill. What fucktards. Pitnutters deserve only pitbulls. They both go full retard all the time. Smart and elegant breeds are too good for gripping dog owners.

Rhea Luna said...

There's still one child in the home right? I think action needs to be taken before these parents who didnt call for the immediate death of these mutants, decide to get another set of pitbulls. Who knows how far reaching their nutterism is?

Rhea Luna said...

Hoarder* auto correct. Glad I dont own a pitbull. The error would have put the poor wiggle butt right over the edge.

Dayna Hamilton said...

"Isn't that Bigger Government dictating to Smaller Government how local people will live? Shouldn't local people be able to decide for themselves 'not in our town'?

There's a reason politicians sneak these state laws through rather than -- if there must be a vote -- putting the question to referendum. See the sick trio's bet number 1) in my comment above."

Yes! I will always vote for smaller, less obtrusive government.

Anonymous said...

There is no reason for a dog to kill a human. Anyone that tries to excuse that, has something seriously wrong with them.

Rhea Luna said...

Speaking of breed differences such as most every other breed doesn't maul because a house is disorderly. ...or whatever other sumb excuse. ...
If pitbull owners and advocates were half as honest as other breed advocates there would never be an incident of a parent owning a pitbull unless the parent was a psychopath.

Check out this craigslist ad on this border collie
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/pet/4296128785.html

Compare this to any and I mean any pitbull ad on Craiglist.

Anonymous said...

Jane Saul Berkey claims to love and worship these breeds ,but what has she done for the pit bull?

Spent millions to increase dog fighting, increase breeding of pit bulls, increase unwanted pits dumped, increase overpopulation of pit bulls, increase abuse to pits, increase hoarding of pit bulls.

It takes an incredibly vain, egotistical and very stupid person to let themselves be used by a bunch of redneck dog fighters and trash backyard breeders as well as the loony tunes at AKC and UKC and the other crackpots.

Does she have the dignity to admit she did some things wrong and try to correct her mistakes, or is this just a control game for a peasant?

She can buy her lackeys but she has been an enemy to pit bulls, and I don't think she has the intelligence to even realize it.

The peasant mind just keeps doing the same dumb tghings over and over again.

dawn james said...

i have looked at AFF financials and berkey has spent thousands spaying and neutering them and to that, i say "thank you jane for sterilizing all of those dogs that no one can identify".

jane berkey and ledy vankavage's greatest sin, they have done absolutely nothing to reverse the popularity of pit bulls, in fact they aggressively pursue any strategy that guarantees the pit bull will become more popular.

DubV said...

It reminds me of why another "big brained" nutter, Brent Toellner, opposes all things that would limit the ability for people to keep pits and dogs in general.

It would lead to a temporary swell in the numbers surrendered to pounds. He's seen it with his own eyes, he writes.

For many rescue, no kill nutters, the primary goal is to keep living cats and dogs alive, regardless of living situation, no matter the cost. And they only view this in the simplest and shortest terms possible.

This is also why they support the continued existence of feral cat colonies, despite these colonies killing an incalculable number of wild animals and being a disease vector.

In their perfect world, if everyone else would contribute full bore to their efforts, then they can have it all, supposedly.

All those freezing and hungry cats will be spayed/neutered, vaccinated, and fed but just living outside. When they are pushed on the huge number of song birds and other wildlife killed, they mouth fart that they also kill supposedly bad things like skunks and raccoons that are common rabies vectors. They are likely perplexed that nearly all wildlife organizations composed of scientists oppose feral cat colonies.

These folks are the enemies of what they supposedly love. I've read here their disorder being compared to Munchausen by proxy disorder. I still find it an apt description.

DubV said...

It might be closer to a savior complex than munchausen's or maybe some hybrid.

Imagine the joy the nutter feel when all the cats come running to be fed!

Imagine when the more tame cats approach them and are starving for human contact!

Just imagine the endorphin flow as the nutters drive off in their compact car covered in self-righteous bumper stickers.

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

After reading the comments about an untidy house being the cause I am a bit concerned. You see I do wind up with dog toys strewn about the house at times.

Although the dogs know how to get the toys from the place where we stack them, I have been unable to teach them to put the toys back.

Knowing that this could provoke an attack/murder does have me concerned.

I now have an eye on the Pomeranians at all times and of course I have my patented Pomeranian Break sticks available in every room in the house just in case.

DubV said...

Putme,

You've inspired me to begin carrying a chop stick as a doxie/beagle mix break stick.

Thank you for being proactive and no doubt saving my life or that of another.

snarky said...


" damn those child pornograhers"

stealing our dead child pics again .

Rhea Luna said...

I am opposed to feral cat colonies! They do NOT kill raccoons. They live among them. The raccoons ravage the trash cans and the cats take part. I hate proponents of feral colonies

Anonymous said...

Oh no, there are a few magazines on the floor by my desk. I hope my Maltese and corgi mix don't kill me over them.

Seriously, the suggestion that the dogs mauled because of some clutter is stupid. It's totally normal for households with little kids to have toys strewn around. Dogs don't care about that. Given that most dogs, if given the chance, will eat garbage and sniff feces, I'd say dogs are not neat freaks that kill over a little clutter.

Garnet

Anonymous said...

Merritt Clifton has written thoughtfully on feral cat colonies many times in Animal People. Please check these articles out. I agree with him.
animalpeoplenews.org

----Packhorse

snarky said...


if a human killed someone over such trivial nonsense, no one would defend the killer . surely if we have to pussy foot around our dogs in order to not get mauled , they are way too dangerous for anyone to keep . how have we sunk this far into depravity and lame-brained thinking , that so many people are like this ?

Packhorse said...

Regarding my above comment, this is a good place to start:

Street dog & feral cat population modeling: catch & kill vs. TNR

http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/anp/2013/12/10/street-dog-feral-cat-population-modeling-catch-kill-vs-tnr/

DubV said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DubV said...

Packhorse,

Gotta be blunt here.

After skimming Clifton's post, before even hunting down Klinge references, I thought:

"they are modeling this like density-dependent growth assumed for something like a wild population of something on an island, they are likely using a variant of logistic growth function with an applied carrying capacity, and I'm pretty sure the assumptions needed for this are unrealistic and untested"

I knew this because I know how people build these types of models because I've had to do it as simple way to learn the discipline.

I realized it was a common assumption and often a mistake in population modeling and it would be the simplest way to get those surprising results. The entire result rests upon the estimation of and application of the concept of carrying capacity, I'm pretty sure. The model results will be highly sensitive to this seemingly untested part of the model's specification.


The way that carrying capacity is guessed out and worked into models is fiercely debated, and now the simple models once used are disdained. My former advisor wrote a relatively famous paper about this.

I then tracked down this:

http://www.slideshare.net/NathalieLouise/stray-dog-ecology

and I'm nearly certain I'm correct.

You should never trust an undocumented model from someone with what appears to not have any citations in academic journals (I looked him up on a few databases).

orangedog said...

My dogs create their own mess in my house. Sometimes I find dog fur tumbleweeds and of course there are dog toys everywhere. I think they are setting me up.

Pibble said...

Shelter manager and volunteers indicted for saving (whoops I meant stealing) two pit bulls involved in the alpaca massacre: http://www.wric.com/story/24521959/head-of-essex-animal-shelter-indicted-for-stealing-dogs-to-be-put-down

The dog idiot: http://www.aspca.org/blog/puppy-swallows-toilet-brush-recovers-aspca-animal-hospital?ms=so_fac_blog-toilet-brush-20140123&initialms=so_fac_blog-toilet-brush-20140123&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebook&utm_source=blog-toilet-brush-20140123

dawn james said...

i see familiar names. thank you for the update on the alpaca killers pibble.

Packhorse said...

Feral cats represent animals that we have failed. There has to be a better way than catch and kill, which simply destroys lives in a never-ending cycle. Spay/neuter to end the reproduction of feral cats and aggressive S/N outreach into the pet cat population to prevent ferals in the first place.

Packhorse said...

"Descended from a line of dogs trained in 19th-century England to attack tethered bulls for sport, they bite without provocation and fight to the death. Short, muscular and tenacious, the dog can exert an astounding 1,800 pounds of pressure per square inch with its powerful jaws. "They grab hold and keep shaking like a shark. They tear huge chunks of meat out of you," says Elson Duvall, an animal-control official in Maryland. Adds Dr. Patricia O'Handley, associate professor of veterinary medicine at Michigan State University: "Pit bulls have a tendency to be aggressive and territorial. When they defend, they don't bark—they bite. This is not the breed for average people."
...
like most animal shelters, the Philadelphia facility puts pit bull strays to death rather than place a potential killer in an unsuspecting household.
...
"When a pit bull is looking at a 3-year-old eyeball to eyeball, it sees another animal," explains Minneapolis animal-control officer Dave Nordmeyer. "Every city in this country is going to have tragic problems with the breed."

-- From July 6, 1987
People magazine

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20096665,00.html

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

"orangedog said...
My dogs create their own mess in my house. Sometimes I find dog fur tumbleweeds and of course there are dog toys everywhere. I think they are setting me up."
---------------
I think you might be on to something.

DubV, I am glad my warning opened your eyes. You never know what might trigger those Doxie/Beagle mixes into a killing rage.
Chop sticks in ever room just in case you have to pry their jaws off of you.

Anonymous said...

You know if you parse this just right, it sounds like capital punishment for stealing dogs:

head-of-essex-animal-shelter-indicted-for-stealing-dogs-to-be-put-down

:)

Rhea Luna said...

Haha win

Anonymous said...

Thank you for posting that Packhorse. People Magazine had it right all the way back in 1987. How many lives have we lost? How many lessons have we learned the hard way? Why is reality so hard to believe?

DubV said...

"Feral cats represent animals that we have failed. There has to be a better way than catch and kill, which simply destroys lives in a never-ending cycle. Spay/neuter to end the reproduction of feral cats and aggressive S/N outreach into the pet cat population to prevent ferals in the first place."

I can grant this, but still Nathaniel's model and its implications can be faulty.

Sometimes there is no good solution to a problem, and we simply have to minimize loss as defined by a particular set of weightings. The total costs (money, dead wildlife, etc) of feral cat colonies is less visible than the colony itself.

dawn james said...

"Sometimes there is no good solution to a problem, and we simply have to minimize loss as defined by a particular set of weightings. The total costs (money, dead wildlife, etc) of feral cat colonies is less visible than the colony itself."

well put. i don't put a lot of thought into this issue because i just don't have the time to but if forced to take a position, i would likely side with wild life. i think i would probably always choose natural life forms over our man made creations.

tropical storms said...

I like cats, they're one of my favorite animals. I'm also realistic about them. They're incredibly efficient little predators who do untold damage to birds and small animals when allowed at large. There's a reason they're called HOUSE CATS. I do not support T/N/R for domestic animals of any species. Humanely euthanize them and enact laws requiring all companion cats and dogs to be neutered and confined to their owner's property.

Anonymous said...

craven, do you plan on writing about the million pibble march that the nutters are trying to do?

http://standupforpits.us/one-million-pibble-march-on-washington-dc/

dawn james said...

fascinating link packhorse. all kinds of fun stuff. myths on both sides: real pit bulls don't bite people, 1800 lbs pressure, gun power... but my favorite part:
"Pit bulls have their defenders, of course—among them even the occasional victim. Jerry Lynn Miller's son James, 4, was killed by her boyfriend's pit bull in Magnolia, Texas. She was angered when a police officer shot the animal dead. "I lost my child, I didn't have to lose my dog too," she said."

she is not technically the victim. her child was but it is nice to know this level of pit freak is nothing new.

dawn james said...

write about it? i'd like to take a film crew and cover it proper.

can you imagine one million pit bulldogs all in one place? lol.

Rhea Luna said...

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/woman-killed-healthy-dog-because-she-didnt-want-anyone-else-own-him

Pit nutter psychopath. Although nobody else should have had him she went full psycho. Didn't she have a gun? Pit dead nutter in jail. Not sure how to take this tale of full blown craziness.

Rhea Luna said...

Killing a pitbull is better than rehoming it because of the dangers but did she have to be a complete psychopath? Cant she have shot it? its one thing like the one ex owner did where strangulation was the only option but this potential maul machine future offender didnt yet have good cause to suffer needlessly. A shot to the head would have sufficed and been more humane. Glad it wasn't a normal dog but seriously this shows how deranged and out of touch a pit nutter is.

dawn james said...

the humane thing to do would be to call another vet but apparently she felt the need to strangle it. i wonder if there were complaints or incidences of aggression?

PutMeInCharge4OneDay said...

" dawn james said...
the humane thing to do would be to call another vet but apparently she felt the need to strangle it. i wonder if there were complaints or incidences of aggression"
--------------------

I am not defending how she carried out the euthanasia but perhaps she figured another vet would refuse to PTS.

I am reminded of an article on 17 Barks about the woman who had the failed pit bull experiment in her house-then taking the dog in to be pts with the vet essentially refusing and having her return the dog to the "rescue".....

We all know that todays veterinarians have been brainwashed by the pit bull propaganda machine

http://17barks.blogspot.com/2012/10/my-pit-bull-experience.html

(That is one of my all time favorite posts at 17 Barks with the full account of the pit bull experiment and Alexandra Semynovas response to it)

At least its one less pit bull the public has to worry about.

Packhorse said...

Imagine if the People article were published in a popular magazine today..

Descended from a line of dogs trained in 19th-century England to babysit children and newborn kittens, pit bulls are adorable wiggle butts that everyone loves. "The worst they will do is lick you to death," says Polly Pittie, an animal-control official in Maryland. Adds Gina Gripper, vet tech at Michigan State University: "Pit bulls have a tendency to be cute and goofy. This is the breed for absolutely everyone, from young families to the disabled elderly.
...
Like most animal shelters, the Philadelphia facility adopts out pit bulls to anyone and everyone rather than euthanizing a pit bull and facing a lawsuit from a no-kill group.
...
"When a pit bull is looking at a 3-year-old eyeball to eyeball, it sees a new best friend to romp and play with," explains Minneapolis animal-control officer Ned Nutter. "Every city in this country is going to be filled with these delightful little scamps."

dawn james said...

i love your renditions packhorse.

Rhea Luna said...

I wondered the same thing about another vet. Idk if it had aggression issues or not. I am just chilled that she strangled it if it wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess I think nutters might be poisoning my brain.
I dont get why she even told anyone. Who investigates dog killings? She could have bagged the pit after its death and dumped it. Nobody would have cared

Rhea Luna said...

I wondered the same thing about another vet. Idk if it had aggression issues or not. I am just chilled that she strangled it if it wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess I think nutters might be poisoning my brain.
I dont get why she even told anyone. Who investigates dog killings? She could have bagged the pit after its death and dumped it. Nobody would have cared

Sjw said...

I cannot fathom choosing strangling, or killing at home, if you could take to a vet instead.

Choking is a great choice for stopping an attack if unarmed, and isn't particularly cruel as it's not painful, and they lose consciousness pretty quickly. But it's totally hands on, so I cannot imagine it being a first choice.

I guess I can see it, as it's the best choice if you wanted/had to do it at home, and didn't have or couldn't use, a gun. Your only other choices in that case are poison (generally slow, cruel as hell), knifing (brutal and messy, painful), beating (totally barbaric and painful), drowning (no better than choking but harder to manage and scarier).

Some vets will refuse to put down a healthy animal, even a gripper with aggression, so maybe thats why she took that route. I sure don't want another gripper in a shelter to be given to a family, so Im not upset about it.

She should have buried it, or had it cremated. Then shut up.


Rhea Luna said...

I agree why didnt she bury the thing ot bag it and shut up? She didn't know shed be in jail?

Sputnik2009 said...

Mark my words: This will turn out to be a stunt intended to get landlords mandated to allow poor misunderstood pit bulls whose loving owners might otherwise strangle them.

Pit bull owners never really care about the dogs, so it's not surprising one would be willing to strangle a pit bull for their 'cause'.

Sjw said...

Maybe she couldn't imagine how she could be jailed for killing her own dog, when others let their dogs kill children with zero legal consequences? It's only animal cruelty if it's done to a gripper, maybe she didn't know this?

Or maybe she's just stupid.

Landlords don't want pit bulls because then they become liable. Thankfully pragmatism over money will keep grippers at bay in some apartments. When I was looking at rentals few let any dogs at all, even fewer let dogs over 35#, and NOT ONE allowed pit bulls or Rottweilers.

This is a big reason why we are in an apartment, not a house. My last house was in a nice neighborhood, but was surrounded by dogs, with grippers on both sides. We got chased by loose dogs all the time, and there was no place in our house to escape the endless barking.

I haven't been able to find a home that's even near
affordable, that doesn't have neighbors infested with annoying dogs. Loud tenants get evicted from any decent complex, but homeowners and home renters can be awful with next to no accountability. Maybe an odd ticket here and there is all.

And yet, people wonder why dangerous/ loud dogs get poisoned or "set free"... It's not out of a desire to be cruel, its the only options for self defense people in normal neighborhoods have.

Rhea Luna said...

Yep pitbulls are huge liabilities and people are stupid.

I live in a house and we are surrounded by grippers everywhere.

Rhea Luna said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
herzeleid said...

You can say that again!

Anonymous said...

http://www.wfsb.com/story/24634296/torrington-firefighter-demoted-after-pit-bull-facebook-posts

Anonymous said...

Kudos to the comment on the coward in the white house. He went fron YES WE CAN to no I can't.. He promised a different kind of politics.. we got robbed.

Rhea Luna said...

I recently read about another toddler mauled by a pitbull and the stupid mother defended the nature of pitbulls. Dumb bitch your kid had his face eaten off and all you wanna do is protect your worthless mutant breeds reputation? She seriously doesn't deserve to keep her kid

Anion said...

Rhea Luna, can I ask you to please stop saying "go[es/ing] full retard?" It's offensive.

Alishia Monarrez said...

They did ask for them to be euthanized, immediately. Just because the tabloid says something different, doesn't mean it's true. When they're told that the dogs can't be immediately euthanized, due to a "lack" of evidence, you can't do anything about it but wait.

"dawn james" said...

thank you for that clarification alishia.