Friday, April 6, 2012

WANTED for chicago dine & dash



this mutant killed a small dog at montrose beach last month.

Anyone with information on the man’s identity can call police at 312-744-8320.



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236 comments:

1 – 200 of 236   Newer›   Newest»
Jim Reeve said...

Just look at this guy and his dog. No muzzle and no common sense. I hope they catch him and give him a huge fine.

dawn james said...

pittie's psyche is too delicate for a muzzle and no common sense is a prerequisite for mutant ownership.
i hope they find this guy and fine him, kill his dog and ban him from owning anymore.

snarky said...

dirt-napp for the dog at least.

vintage said...

Another Nutter APB...

Once again, the Pit Bull Community is changing America's relationship with dogs. It needs to be a felony to leave a bite victim.

Its Unlikely the Pit Community will be offering a reward via donations....Rest assured however, they will raise donations to fight the Pitte's euthanization!

cinnamon2005 said...

Vintage-isn't that the truth!

Meals on Wheels said...

DON'T be a Sap,
Avoid DINE and DASH!
If your walking your Poodle,
You need to be usin' your noodle!
Get fluffy some armor,
He'll be quite the gallant charmer!
If he's lucky enough to survive,
A pit bull CLASH,
You need to ensure that you can recoup the CASH!
So be sure to take a gun,
When you and Fluffy are having some fun,
And be sure to give pitty a nice dirt NAP!

Who else is SICK to death of this CRAP?

Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

Typical pit bull owner... Flee the scene and let a single mother cover a 5 thousand dollar vet bill. Typical pit bull owner... An asshole coward that can't face a 12 year old girl after his pit kills her pet. Typical pit bull owner... Blame everything but the breed for this and the thousands upon thousands of killings by pit just like it. And to think these imbeciles get annoyed when people shoot them a death stare as they bring their pit into a dog park? Fuck them and their ugly fucking pits.

snarky said...

these mouthy, know-it-all pitopologist, rescue types, i wonder if they would stick around to face the music if their sweet mutants turned medievel at the dog park or wherever. what happens at the dog park , stays at the dog park is more like it , i suspect. pitters can always think of an excuse or some mitigating factor or try to shift the blame to the victim, somehow , anyhow. slithering is what it is and snakes arent the only ones that do it.

Pit nutter said...

I've been a responsible owner of rescued pits for over 15 years and if one of my dogs ever attacked a dog in such a way that vet bills were incurred I would be mortified never mind if the other poor dog died as a result. I would most certainly stick around. This guy is a scumbag and has no business owning any dog never mind a pit bull.

DubV said...

It's interesting that "responsible" pit owners have to think so much about what they'll do when their pit bull starts acting like a pit bull.

It's great to hear that if your dog does what it was breed to do that you'll be upset and pay. Sorta like a suburban humvee driver who drives defensively but if he ever gets in a wreck and his huge vehicle kills a family (that would've been spared by a toyota camry or even a normal sized truck), he'll feel really bad and pay for the life flight.

Hey pit nutter, responsibility doesn't start once you have an item. Responsibility should be reflected when you are choosing the items as well.

Sharon Yildiz said...

And here's another nutter whose dog did the "dine and dash" in NYC today: http://nyc.everyblock.com/announcements/apr05-serious-incident-marcus-garvey-dog-park-5082341/?utm_source=msnbc&utm_campaign=nyc&utm_medium=local_slice

snarky said...

@ responsible pitter:
accidents do happen and dogs will be dogs and mutants are very protective of their owners...... yadda , yadda , yadda . you say you would do the right thing but i wonder. also , even if u did, would it bring my dog back if it was killed or would save the trauma if it survived. too little , too late.

cinnamon2005 said...

Pit nutter-I appreciate your response. Curious though, what would you do with your dog if it inflicted serious injury/death?

Pit nutter said...

If my dog went after another dog and I could not control my dog...my dog is a liability so yes I would. My closest friend just put down their 14 year old "mutant" 2 days after a long life of being loved and cared for. This dog never bit any person or any dog but it was definately a liability and could have ended up in the headlines. The owner got her as a teenager and made all the typical mistakes good intentioned powerful breed owners make and raised a dog aggressive pit. Loved people...hated dogs and most other animals. So there is a problem but IMO it's a pit bull population as well irresponsible owners.

Pit nutter said...

**I would put him down

cinnamon2005 said...

Thanks. We have Mastiff's(English and Dogue de Bordeaux) besides a Great Pyr and Irish Setter. Love my dogs but would not hesitate to PTS if any would injure/kill a person or pet.

DubV said...

Powerful breeds....does this include gentle giants like St. Bernards and Newfoundlands?

It isn't simply being powerful. It is adequate power combined with other traits (behavioral and otherwise) that make pits and a few other dog types problems.

Don't throw all dogs over 80 lbs. under the bus for what mutants do.

cinnamon2005 said...

Some Mastiff's actually have what's called a "fluffy" gene from being crossed with Saints and Newies. Fiona, my Mastiff, had a littermate that was one. I'll post a pick on my blog.

Pit nutter said...

No, of course not. I think you know which breeds I refer to.

Pit nutter said...

Fwiw a true "mutant" shouldn't weight more than 67lbs

DubV said...

See, I hear this all the time

"Fwiw a true "mutant" shouldn't weight more than 67lbs"

When a pit hurts someone and the police say it was a 90 lbs dog, then the chorus says "can't be a pit, too big".

This doesn't make sense though. I'll ask a few questions.

Do all species have an average adult size?

Do all these species have a distribution around that size (some variance)?

Is the range of size actually just a cutting of the threshold for variance (maybe at 2.5% and 97.5% to create a 95% confidence interval)?

Therefore, is it statistically likely that some individuals of said species will exceed the usual range because they are on the tail ends of the variance?

In humans, do genetically and functionally normal adults exist that are 4'10? What about 7'? Is it correct to call this people humans even though they are beyond the common range in various directions?

PS The answer to all those questions is yes, and should explain to you why you aren't viewing this correctly.

cinnamon2005 said...

Some are trying to get giant size pits:
http://www.bossykennels.com/

snarky said...

i think that pit-mixes probably have potential to be as dangerous as any non-mix mutant . so a rottie/pit mix weighing in at 90 ibs is something i would really watch out for . i actually have seen lots of aggressive big dogs , st bernards , danes , big shep / malumute type dogs , but i doubt they would have the same killer instinct of a purebred fighting mutant. what rankles me more than anything is why would people choice to own a dog bred purely for fighting ? that in itself seems irresponsible.

Pit nutter said...

I was commenting on the original apbt. I wouldn't consider the these new pit bull breeds in that category. By they these breeder supposedly go to great lengths to breed out the fighting and focus a lot on socialization.

snarky said...

yeah it funny but pitters will go on about how aggressive small dogs can be,which is often true, but who cares? then ten seconds later will tell you pitbulls are a smaller breed. and little dogs are vicious and nasty but mutants have heart , are noble and brave . yep pitters are really very funny ....hilarious.

april 29 said...

"these breeder(s) supposedly go to great lengths to breed out the fighting and focus a lot on socialization."

Breed AWAY from game in pit bulls? It will never sell. "Supposedly" is the operative word.

snarky said...

"IT WILL NEVER SELL....SOMEBODY HAS TO DIE , SOMEONE ALWAYS DIES"

snarky said...

how popular would pitbulls be without the MUTANT X factor ? u know ? like what kind of self- respecting psychopath wants a dog to lick people to death? or a dealer that has a pittie that rolls over when the drug squad shows up. come on now pitters , give us a break!

Miss Margo said...

Cinnamon, is an English Mastiff the same (or very similar to)as a Great Dane? Just curious! I don't know if I've ever seen an English Mastiff.

I hope you all are having a good Easter (or Holiday) weekend!

cinnamon2005 said...

Nope, two different breeds. The Mastiff is the heaviest breed, Great Danes are taller but the Irish Wolfhound is the tallest breed. BUT there's a big demand, why I haven't a clue, for Mastiff/Great Dane mixes. Like either one of them isn't already a big enough dog! But of course people produce them because people want them. Geeze, there's enough mutts looking for homes. That's also not a good mix genetically.

snarky said...

wouldnt like to be an easter bunny at the dog park or anywhere else this spring where i live.

THE MUTANT X FACTOR!

snarky said...

i see mutants everywhere but in my dreams ..thankfully . they are very loving , i hear LOL. yea , as long as you dont smell of fear.

Branwyne Finch said...

There are absolutely pit bulls that weigh in excess of 100 lbs....they are called American Bullies, and are typically registered by the UKC as American Pit Bull Terriers. With the majority of breeders of AmStaffs and APBTs being bybers, and often outright criminals, there are no real physical breed "standards" with these dogs.
That is why so many dogs are labeled pit bull "mixes" when in reality they are simply pit bulls. Most breeders don't breed to any standard, they are breeding either for deformities, (giant heads, low and wide) or performance (dog fighting or guarding).

You are wrong about breeders "breeding away" from dog aggression....there is currently NO organized effort, code of ethics, or standard for ANY Amstaff or APBT breeder groups to breed away from DA. The UKC standard actually acknowleges that DA is "part" of the breed. The American Bullie breeders sometimes claim to not breed for dog fighting, but they are intentionally breeding dogs for physical deformities and genetic health issues. American Bully breeders are set up like an MLM, their goal is to make money convincing buyers to become breeders. They do NO health testing on their dogs, which are often dysplatic and suffer from auto immune disorders. They are all bybers, trying to cash in on "fads" like the color blue or "giant" pits.

Anyone willing to intentionally breed dogs who will end up crippled and in pain with HD, or suffering from demodectic mange, are NOT caring about temperament, and you are a fool to believe otherwise. Even the Amstaff breeders doing conformation at AKC events will NOT neuter a dog for being DA if he is winning ribbons.

Dog aggression as a genetic trait is embraced by the pit bull community of owners and breeders are being an integral part of the breed. They have no intention of breeding safer dogs.

cinnamon2005 said...

"Dog aggression as a genetic trait is embraced by the pit bull community of owners and breeders are being an integral part of the breed" and of course denied by them at the same time to others.
As far as the large Pit's..they look like a dog on steroids-which they probably are.

snarky said...

i think most people who have pitbulls, want pitbulls , not some wimpy, bred- down facsimile. otherwise why not get a real dog instead of an unreliable mutant thats going to cause you tons of trouble , one way or another. all this crap about loving and loyal and protective can be had with lots of other breeds , almost any in my experience. "gilding the lily" pure and simple

snarky said...

in other words, pitters get pits cuz of the MUTANT X factor , not cuz theys handsome brindled goof-balls or they play sweetly with smaller dogs and children , or they stand guard over the lawn furniture. all pure B.S. with a capital b for bully.

DubV said...

"I was commenting on the original apbt."

And you are still wrong in your approach for the reasons I stated.

I can't believe you don't see the parallel to answering questions like this:

Is the center for the LA Lakers a human?

How can you say yes to that sentence and yet state categorically that a 90 lbs dog cannot be a pit bull?

dawn james said...

there are also banddogs, pit x presas.
MOST purebred game bred APBT are not 90 lbs. but occasionally they do they get that large.

you nutters insist on including helen keller's boston terrier, general patton's english bull terrier, humphrey bogart's boxers, thomas jefferson's and laura ingalls wilder's bulldogs, it is only fair that you include banddogs and ambullies.

snarky said...

?

snarky said...

ignore that
@ responsible pitter.
wait till a giant mutant grabs your wimpy pit , then tell us theres no such thing.

Pit nutter said...

lol OY! I am not arguing about them now...crap now even i am confused. My point is...was...that originally...they were small...i know they are bigger now. I'm not arguing that.

I am fully aware of the controversial american bully scene. I am also aware that any pit mix is a pit and most are more than true pits.

snarky said...

i suppose, if u can get atypical pits u can also get atypical pitters. im just thinking that as a pit nutter u seem very reasonable and even slightly benign. you arent posting from a max secure facility somewhere are u?

snarky said...

@ nice pitter:
like , im sure its not the first time we've had some kind of feedback from someone on death row or whatever. and id be the last person to judge you for an "accident" if youve, ukno, gone on some kind of a bloody rampage of some kind.? "pitters will be pitters" as they say , and all humans have it in us and its all in our up-bringing. u could have been terribly abused by your owners or something, too . i think u definitely deserve a second chance to become a regular human and to go play at the dog park ect , with your pit/s ect. i think u could become a rehabilitated pitter and even become a great service provider to some lucky lady some day .....some day .

snarky said...

SUPER MAX FACILITY for select pitters. concrete floor and roof and super chainlink for the the worst of the four legged mutants. dont know that that doesnt seems fitting to me.

cinnamon2005 said...

Look what someone just posted to me on Facebook:
Brittany Stilgenbauer commented on your link.
Brittany wrote: "posting multiple posts in the same day is considered spamming so just know you are walking on thin ice"
I didn't see anything to indicate she was a Facebook admin-checked her and sure enough she has a Pitbull in her profile! I just said, "Whatever" to which she replied, "Brittany wrote: "Just telling you the guidelines we all try to follow..."
Yah, you just don't like that I'm not give the Pitbull a positive image.

snarky said...

spamming is way better than scamming ... brittany stilgenpitter.

cinnamon2005 said...

I guess she didn't like the Pitbull articles I was posting.

vintage said...

US PITICIDE NUMBER 330:

http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/Elderly_man_killed_by_neighborhood_dogs__146762585.html

cinnamon2005 said...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Your-child-is-more-vicious-then-my-Pit-Bull-Ban-Children/102619863109432

DubV said...

The comment section at the link vintage provided on the latest death by pit is very intense. It seems people who live on the border of oklahoma and texas don't mince words on this subject.

cinnamon2005 said...

Doesn't surprise me..don't they have an express way on death row too? LOL

snarky said...

oh god i like the idea of swift justice . sweet ....ukno....wednesday is fryday
that sort of thing.
dirtnap for dirtbags

BB said...

That death doesn't even show up on a Google News search of "pitbull". So much for the media blowing it all out of proportion...

cinnamon2005 said...

The Pitiful Pitty People have been hounding the media not to identify the dog in the attacks. Cause then we can not only influence the dumb and gullible...we can affect statistics of pitbull attacks.

snarky said...

lethal injection is my personal favorite method . its so easy .... can be done at home , the vets or at a custodial facility.
afterward they look like they're sleeping .

Pit nutter said...

I was at an informal dog park in my area yesterday when a fellow nutter happen by with his mutant and his black lab. In a twisted turn of events the lab was actually the one with DA against the mutant I am fostering which made me a little nervous because he has only been with me a short time and the last thing I want is for him to be on the front page. Anyways, he was very tolerate of the lab and all the dogs got allong great.

The point of this post was, the guy was telling me he was there one day and another nutter was there and his mutant attacked a border collie and sat there and watched it happen. He had to break up the fight. Awful! Dog fights are terrible when they happen...but to not intervene is reprehensible.

cinnamon2005 said...

And some Pit people wonder why the dogs "get a bad rap". There is no way I could stand by and watch a dog get attacked without trying to do something about. EXCEPT....no offense, Pit Nutter, unless it was two pit's then I wouldn't intervene.

Pit nutter said...

I know why they do :-/ A responsible mutant owner stops a mutant owner from ever knowing what it means to get into that "fight" state. You should have seen that guys mutant. She was by far the calmest sweetest dog out of the 10 that were there. And she was an old girl of 10 to boot. You wouldn't have believed your eyes.

He got her at 10 weeks old and raised her the right way. Never let her go into a "mutant" state. If that makes sense. That is what it means to be a responsible mutant owner.

It can be done but you have to know what you are doing. You have to know the signs of good and bad play. Most don't. They think a lot of bad play is cool and fun....and it is deadly when add that on top of the fact the dog does not respect that owner as top dog. Then add in no exercise and no boundaries...forget it. That's the trifecta...that's how these sweet pets that were loved and cared for go bad. Dogs need more than love...they need discipline, exercise and love. This is especially important with powerful dominant dogs.

You should need a permit to own a powerful breed dog, not just a mutant. In my life I've NEVER been scared of a mutant. But at seperate times I've had the crap scared out of me by a shepard, an akita, and a husky.

It is also possible to rehabilitate a mutant that has gone into that state. It takes time, patience, a prong collar, confidence and a calm assertive attitude. :)

cinnamon2005 said...

Now recently I took a disabled client to a low cost vet setup at our nearby Firestation. Their was a few pits there that weren't bothing the other animals. I would still take my chances with a 200lb Mastiff before I would a 50lb Pitbull.

Pit nutter said...

that's personal preference. They are awesome dogs. Shouldn't I be able to choose which I want? I know mutant can kill....but so can the 3 that i listed...and they do. I think the only reason you don't hear about them as much is because there aren't approx. 10mill of them in the country. Not tring to stir up a hornets nest with that last comment, thats my honest feeling. There are just so GD many mutants...of course there the ones killing! They out number any other dog by how many? Any there are still how many morons that won't fix their pets?

If i could I'd have 2 of each. I currently have a 14 year Vizsla, a 16mos hound/dobie mix and a 76lb mutant mix that I will be going to his forever home every soon. My mutant passed last Sept from cancer after 13 years. I rescue all my pups. She was a handful and I made a lot of the mistakes nutters make with her and she had some DA in her elder years. But we grew together and I learned. Fortunately she was an actress, she never ever clamped down on anything. She never ever bite hard on anything in her life...not a toy, a bone...anything. She had attitude with other dogs but it was all warnings.

She grew up with the Vizsla and they got into it twice. Once when i first brought her home and once about 9 years later and both times it sounded like my poor vizsla was a goner. I thought OMG what happened to my poor pup. But nothing, not a scratch.....all attitude and warnings.

cinnamon2005 said...

I firmly believe that until your fellow Pitty People stop promoting these dogs as a type of dog that should be in every household, the problem will continue to get worse and really it's the Pitty peoples fault. People who are too gulliable and insecure to know theiir own limitations as a dog owner, are getting these dogs..which is no wonder with all the begging and pleading by the Pitty group to get one...the old saying-a sucker born every mionute. Again, no type of dog is for everyone and should not be presented as such.

Pit nutter said...

I agree and disagree. I think they could be in every household if people agreed to the responsibility...it really is not that hard. You just need to be a responsible dog owner. The difference is if you are not a responsible dog owner with a submissive lab it's no big deal..the digs still going to be a great dog.

You don't have the luxury with a mutant and you are right. Irresponsible rescues forcing them on people not fully understanding what it means to properly care for a DOG never mind a mutant is not doing any favors. And in fact putting people at risk.

Fortunately these mutants are not as bad as you folks want them to be or else there would be a lot more incidents. I mean we are talking about millions upon millions of mutants out there. They truly don't want to be mutants..you can see it if you look hard enough...a lot of the time it is out of frustration or fear not aggression.

These mutants have a kind of soul that i cannot describe. That is my draw to them. My sweet Haley Jade used to look at me with her eyes like no other dog ever did. And energy and zest for life was surreal. Now I love all dogs, but there will always be a soft spot in my heart for these mutants. That is why I choose to foster them right now. I have yet to come across one that was not a sweet heart deep down...and i have come across some "mean" ones

Pit nutter said...

oh i forgot add that people are inherently lazy so ya....it's probably not a good idea to push them on most people lol....

cinnamon2005 said...

Many of the giant breeds are called "gentle giants". Hate that phrase, never use it, ranks right up there with "Nanny Dog". Implies to the gullible that all dogs in that breed group are gentle. Hubby just used that phrase yesterday and had to chew him out for it.

DubV said...

Pit nutter said...

"they out number any other dog by how many?"

Outside of trailer parks, rural slums, urban slums, and animal shelters; pit bulls aren't nearly as common as you would think. You actually think they are more common that non-pit mixes and labs? If so, you must be smoking something, or haven't travelled very widely.

DubV said...

Pit nutter said....

"I agree and disagree. I think they could be in every household if people agreed to the responsibility...it really is not that hard. You just need to be a responsible dog owner. The difference is if you are not a responsible dog owner with a submissive lab it's no big deal..the digs still going to be a great dog. "

So, you admit that a responsible owner is defined by the dog breed as well as the dog's individual temperament, right? For instance, a responsible owner of a small mutt behaves differently than a "responsible" owner of a mutant, correct? Ok, if I've got you that far, then a responsible mutant owner has to do many things a responsible lab owner doesn't need to do such as, what? You're the "expert" here, so you tell us. I'm guessing break sticks, NEVER letting the dog near a child or other animal, ......gee sounds like a crappy pet that is still potentially more dangerous no matter what. You see, responsible adults KNOW that they sometimes make mistakes. Why? Because they catch themselves making mistakes and having accidents. Now, all else being equal, let's say great owner, if you drop the ball with a mutant, then something very bad is more likely to happen than if you drop the ball (make a mistake or someone else does) with a non-mutant dog. That's why it is said that non-mutants have a built in safety buffer. The reason I put "responsible" in quotes before is that responsible people, by definition, do not make choice that put themselves and others at elevated risk, all else being equal meaning under similar circumstances, or if they make a mistake/have an accident which is obviously part of being human.

Responsible pit nutter makes about as much since as responsible suicide bomber or responsible meth lab proprietor or responsible driver of a sherman tank as a commuter to work.

cinnamon2005 said...

When I read Pit Nutter's recent comment, I thought, Oh no! Wait till Dubv, Dawn and Snarky see it! I think I'll keep my mouth shut and sit back and watch.

DubV said...

I like Pit Nutter more than most pit owners, and he or she is likely more responsible than most; and Pit Nutter talks less unmitigated garbage. And Pit Nutter is fun to duel with a bit. However, Pit Nutter is giving us the soft sell.

cinnamon2005 said...

Dubv-I agree.

DubV said...

I'll amend my statement to say that making choices that elevate risk is justifiable if a higher net benefit is a result or if the elevated risk is very minute.

For instance, having cars on the road places us all at increased risk of death, but the benefits of a population where at least the people who actually need them to perform certain functions drive seems to outweigh the risk involved.

Dog breeds are different. You seem to think that pit bulls have this soul that no other dog has, even the mean ones. To be honest, this sounds bat shit. Other breeds give you all the positives without the elevated risk. Most of us here are dog owners, and I for one take exception to you putting a fucking pit bull that was created by scum for a blood sport (and seems to love to rip the shit out of other dogs) over my dog who is a small, gentle individual of a cross that is gentle and neither of the constituents regularly kill people (especially not this week). I'll return the favor, my dog is worth more than one hundred pit bulls.

Pit nutter said...

@ # dogs...i guess the internet lies? dunno...i'm not going to argue the number of dogs then. I just know that when i go look for a rescue dog almost all of them are a pit mix of some kind. I only get rescue dogs.

And yes, mutant owners do have to do things differently then lab owners. It is the same thing as rotty owners or other powerful breed owners. They do not allow their dogs to get into a frenzied fighting state.

An example of this would be playing tug. Some people thing it is great to have their mutant latch on and shake and twitst and kill their rope toy. This send their dog into a "fight" or "mutant" mode which isa what I was refering to before this is very bad. Especially if the dog does this a lot combined with all the other factors mentioned in my earlier post... frustration.....no leadership...etc etc

this is a ticking time bomb with any powerful dog....i've witnessed it with other dogs besides mutants and its scary!

never seen a break stick in real life...always cautious with new dogs and children at first but nothing out of the normal as far as mutants go. I waited 2 days to introduced the latest mutant to my 2 pups and there were no issues...the 3 of them get along fine.....

Pit nutter said...

"having cars on the road places us all at increased risk of death,"

This is interesting. So i think this is a personal freedom issue. Your statement here....Cars are a necessity...yes. Are sports cars? are convertibles? Jeeps? big SUVs? Cellphones? Burgers? Coffee? Radio stations? Air fresheners?

All of these things make life more deadly and in fact cause more lives then mutants....should we outlaw all of these things?

I digress...don't answer...we all know cars and probably air fresheners are a lot more dangerous than mutants

cinnamon2005 said...

"Other breeds give you all the positives without the elevated risk"
Now when our Mastiff, Markie, died from cancer..we checked into the Tibetan Mastiff but when we read this: "TMs are highly protective of their family and their property. Your friends may not be able to walk into the house. Your children's friends may not be able to come to play. Many TMs will not permit anyone other than a very few, very well-known and accepted people, to walk into their house." we decided the risks outweighed the benefits and got another Mastiff instead.

Pit nutter said...

there are risks involved in owning any powerful breed

Jake said...

@pit nutter -

There are certainly risks in any large dog. But the risks inherent in a breed which was specifically created to attack and kill dogs in the pit turns out to be significantly higher than the risks from other dogs of similar physical capabilities.

There are other breeds which are larger and stronger than pit bulls, and can kill a pit bull if they have to - but they were not bred for the pit and they don't have the same genetic imperative to attack and kill.

That's why it's the pit bulls who have pretty much exclusive ownership of the "kill the owner" market. Let's face it, when pit bulls account for 3/4 of the human deaths from dog attacks in the US last year, it doesn't take a statistician to see a problem.

Pit nutter said...

78% of all internet statistics are made up on the spot.

Pit nutter said...

or is that 97%...i forget.

cinnamon2005 said...

"they don't have the same genetic imperative to attack and kill." English Mastiff's were bred to guard. They use their bark and imposing size to intimidate. An attack is usually the last resort..just alot of effort to move that much weight. Now because of this, that's why they deveopled the Bullmastiff..smaller size and more aggressive.

Jake said...

@pit nutter -

Sorry for the numbers, I know you people don't like math.

I also realize that pit nutters don't like the facts in general, and if you can't suppress them, you'll try to discount them in some way.

But these numbers are well documented. Anyone with the desire to find out how many people were killed by dogs in the US can do so, and you can also find out what breeds were involved.

You people are always saying "educate yourself" right? Here's your chance - check out these quick links to give you a gentle heads-up:

dogsbtite
fatal pitbull attacks
animal people

Pit nutter said...

I am not going to argue your numbers. I believe the numbers are the way they are because of the sheer amount of pit bulls there are out there.

Hell if you want to play the spout off pointless statistics games I can plays that game too.....

2.) Although there are no accurate or even near accurate census records
for dogs in the U.S., in some populations mutants are estimated to
comprise some 30-40% of the dog population, making it a very popular
breed. Considering that there were an estimated 53,000,000 dogs in the
U.S., and assuming that mutants make up 10% of that population, there
would be approximately 5.3 million pit bulls in our society. In 2000, 13 mutants were involved in 8 fatal attacks. That is roughly ONE dog out of
204,000 - or .000385 percent of the mutant population.

3.) Over the 37-year period from 1965-2001, mutants have been blamed
for an average of 2.48 human fatalities per year.

4.) About 40 people (children) per year die by drowning in 5-gallon water
pails. A person, during their lifetime, is 16 times more likely to drown in a
5-gallon water pail than to be killed by a mutant.

5.) Approximately 50 children in the US are killed every year by their cribs
- 25 times the number of children and adults killed by mutants.

6.) Approximately 150 people are killed every year by falling coconuts.
Therefore, you are more than 60 TIMES MORE LIKELY to be killed by a
PALM TREE than a mutant.

7.) Each year, 350 people drown in their bathtubs. You are 151 times
more likely to be killed by your bathtub than you are by a mutant.

8.) It is estimated that about 500 deaths per year are caused by aspirin.
You are more than 200 times more likely to die from taking aspirin than
from a mutant attack.

9.) Every year, more than 2,000 children in the U.S. are killed by their
parents or guardians either through abuse or neglect. A child is more
than 800 times more likely to be killed by their adult caretaker than by a
mutant.

10.) It is estimated that 5,000,000 dogs per year are killed in shelters.
Since in many places mutants make up 30-50% of the shelter population,
and are less likely to be considered for placement than any other breed,
guessing that 25% of those dogs killed is a reasonable estimate.
Therefore, it can be assumed that perhaps 1.25 million mutants are killed
per year.

Therefore - it is at least a HALF MILLION TIMES MORE LIKELY that a pit
bull will be killed by a HUMAN than the other way around.

11.) For every mutant who kills, there are hundreds of thousands that
DON'T.

snarky said...

at first i thot u werent a real pit nutter, too reasonable and even tempered for someone who claims to love the hound from hell. i think u musta been scamming us about that. just like a mutant dog, u probably have a side u are not revealing.

cinnamon2005 said...

For every mutant who kills, there are hundreds of thousands that
DON'T.....kill that day. "1.25 million mutants are killed
per year." So shouldn't there be more a push from the Pitbull Posse for S/N? As far as the rest of the comments..in the world of disabilities that's called Redirection.

Pit nutter said...

The problem with banning something is it never fixes it. Look at the war on drugs...prohibition. It never works.

Ban every mutant in the world and in 10 years we will be having the same conversations. About how the next powerful breed that once fought a hundred years ago is fighting again because of some scumbags. And the same losers that thought mutants looked cool in rap videos and drug dealers wanted them to protect their stashes will be having this new breed following in the mutants foot steps.

BSL is a band-aid like prohibition. I think the only way to fix the problem is to start hold the pet owners responsible for their pets.

CRIMINALLY! Assault if on a person and at least felony destruction of property if against another pet...if there is such a crime. But hold the pet owners responsible!

That's what I do not understand....i know if you own livestock you are responsible...should be the same thing for powerful breeds.

Jake said...

LOL @pit nutter -

I see you drank the kool-aid from the "balloons and slippers" book. Surely the irony of your copy and paste of these reams of made-up numbers isn't lost on you, after the way you claimed that stats are all made up.

All of your numbers above are complete wild guesses, and most of them ridiculously far from reality. I call BS.

The best methodology I have seen is from the animal people, who by the way don't just pull numbers out of the air the way your leaders do. They explain exactly how they got the numbers, so you can verify their facts - at any rate, the animal people have shown that large retrievers in the US exist in roughly similar proportion as pit bulls.

So, please explain how pit bulls have killed 45 people in the US over the past 2 years while large retrievers have killed zero.

Why is it that pit bulls attack someone in the US, causing serious enough injury that it is reported, every 12 hours on average? Why is it that pit bulls kill someone in the US on average every 2 weeks, while you'll have to go back some years to find the last time someone was killed by any sort of large retriever?

Could it be that a breed which was bred specifically to attack and kill would be more dangerous than a normal dog? Isn't that the simple, obvious answer?

Inquiring minds want to know!

april 29 said...

Pit nutter, you state that you get your impression of the percentages of pit bulls in the general population of dogs from what you see when you "rescue" dogs. American Shelters are drowning in pit bulls, this is not the general population. If pit bull owners would stop treating pit bulls like an untaxed cash crop and started neutering and spaying the dogs... the problem would be solved.

Unknown said...

That coconut thing is all crap,do some rehearsal at being a better nutter and maybe you will find some made up shit we haven't heard before. But i doubt it.

If your coconut fact,which is not true what does that say for your other so called facts???

Unknown said...

There is no other breed,all the fighting dogs are pit bull type dogs,

And yeah anyone found with a pit or breeding after the ban get jail time and banned from ever owning dogs again...would that put you off your land sharks?

Pit nutter said...

lol i knew that would get you guys going

Unknown said...

so you know the coconut thing is not true so you said it any way.

Thats what makes you a nutter,kids and people are getting mauled every day, mostly by family pits and you think its a joke,

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said.."This is interesting. So i think this is a personal freedom issue. Your statement here....Cars are a necessity...yes. Are sports cars? are convertibles? Jeeps? big SUVs? Cellphones? Burgers? Coffee? Radio stations? Air fresheners?

All of these things make life more deadly and in fact cause more lives then mutants....should we outlaw all of these things?"

It's only a matter of time before a nutter's colors show. I think you might've came here to educate us and tried to be nice, then you got your bad reasoning slammed by the people here and now you are a being a bit nutto. Or maybe you were just trolling all along.

Here's the thing, half of what you listed ONLY INCREASE RISK TO THE PERSON ALSO GETTING ANY BENEFIT. You really don't get this? A burger increases risk to me, the eater. A convertible increases risk to me, the driver. Radio stations cause risk how? Interfering with driving?

Now onto driving dangerously while using a cell OR driving a large SUV that you do not actually need. These things increase risk to others that have no say in the decision and derive no benefit from you getting to chat inappropriately or from getting to feel cool in your Humvee. I might come down on the wrong side of some people here, but I would say that these decisions are inherently immoral. There are worse things though, like owning a shit bull.

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said...

" I just know that when i go look for a rescue dog almost all of them are a pit mix of some kind."

And you think that tons of pit bulls needing homes is evidence of them being incredibly common, the most common dog? Hmm...have you ever considered another hypothesis? How about they are produced by the irresponsible and also generally make bad pets with a high abandonment rate? Anyone who thinks pits are the most popular dogs in the country are way off. Clifton estimated dog population percentages by looking at a random sample of classified ads offering dogs and estimated pits at a much smaller percent. Can you come up with a better method? Or are you happy with just licking your finger and then thrusting it into the wind?

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said...

"for dogs in the U.S., in some populations mutants are estimated to
comprise some 30-40% of the dog population,"

I fully agree that in urban and rural slums that pit bulls are wildly popular. "In some populations", that little caveat didn't throw up a red flag? Of course not.....

DubV said...

"The problem with banning something is it never fixes it. Look at the war on drugs...prohibition. It never works."

so now pit nutter is moving to the position of a ban is ineffective? Oooohhhh....if you can show that to be true then I guess you won! ha.

Pit nutter said...

No Dubv all of those things with the exception of the covertible make it unsafer for everyone around me unsafer for the people around me as a exult of me owning, using or consuming those things.

If I drive sports car to fast and slam into your family...run over you in my suv...hit because I am distracted because of the burger, air freshener, radio....etc etc etc... If I was not distracted in a white Toyota camry our family would be a lot safer. Should we all have to drive camrys?

You talk about dog numbers bores me...move on

Pit nutter said...

*your

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said...

"No Dubv all of those things with the exception of the covertible make it unsafer for everyone around me unsafer for the people around me as a exult of me owning, using or consuming those things."

My only crime is not realizing that your long list of isolated words followed by question marks were all referencing things that could be bad in a car. Listen, Nutter, you are describing ways that people can behave badly in a car, versus I was speaking of ownership and a specific action, even if done correctly.

Do you not see a difference? Do you not know that distracted driving is a ticketable offense? If I kill someone because I have a big mac in each hand, I can go to jail or be rightly sued in civil court and lose everything. Same thing if I speed (which having a sports car does not make unavoidable). And all these things, driving in an unsafe way, are....immoral and people like myself and others (shocker to you!) avoid it. Some things you mention are kind of ridiculous (really coffee and radio at a reasonable volume?) in the context of pit bull maulings.

You have been hoisted upon your own PITard.

Now, a responsible driver in a responsible auto is not like a "responsible" pit bull owner. Let's bring the conversation back to that. Why? Because you could pick another type of dog less likely to try to or be able to kill another dog or a person. Again, a responsible pit bull owner is as much an oxymoron as a responsible user of lead-based paint.

It's all about freedom of choice though, huh? No liabilities (moral or otherwise) so far as your choices will not with certainty lead to harming another? (for the record I'm a huge advocate of freedom of choice, but your right to swing your arm ends at my nose, even if you just happened to miscalculate the trajectory of your swing and didn't know you'd hit me and just found it fun to flap your arms like a cuckoo bird)

snarky said...

at least pit-nutter has not threatened to bring more rescued mutants to our neighbourhoods, like miss masspits did. i guess u get the dumb ,obnoxious dingbats like her and then u also have the slimy , so-called responsible mutantphiles like pit nutter here.

cinnamon2005 said...

Ok now guys this was funny(from facebook):


Hali Henson:What is your vendetta against them again?

Ginny LRidley: Why are you trolling on all the anti-pitbull facebook pages?

Hali Henson: I'm not trolling. I am asking people questions.
I just want to know why you have this fear and why you have not overcame it.

**I was surprise she didn't ask me if I was in therapy for my "pitbull fear" LOL

snarky said...

is case anyone is wondering who miss masspits is ....F.F.Y.R'S

F. FOR YOUR RIGHTS.

Branwyne Finch said...

While I believe I own shoes that are older than Pit Nutter, which explains his/her naivete.. I will comment on two things. Pit bulls are only "common" in low income, high crime areas. Pit bulls are very common in poor urban areas, and very rare in affluent suburbs. Its easy to trace where the dogs are coming from by looking at who is breeding them..CL, Kijiji, and an internet search will reveal that
responsible, educated, employed adults are not breeding pit bulls.

As for your belief that pit bulls have a "special soul" that other dogs don't have, that's simply magical thinking.....like a 13 year old girl who "just knows" that Justin Beiber would fall in love with her if only they met! No one who truly loves dogs believes that there is one "breed" that is superior than another. But it makes perfect sense that an individual who worships a breed of dog created to kill other dogs would devalue other breeds and fantasize that pit bulls are special.

I truly believe that the attraction to these dogs by individuals...usually young women...who romanticize and anthropomorphize them, and imagine that have have a spiritual connection to them, is an indicator of a mental health issue. Similar to Timothy Treadwell, who imagined he had a spiritual connection with bears, but eventually was killed by one. The difference is, pit bull fanatics are putting the rest of us at risk.

snarky said...

very well put B.P. , but if you were addressing any of the mutantphiles who might be out there, i think you are wasting your time . " pearls cast before swine "

snarky said...

sorry i meant B.F.

" no one who truly loves dogs believes there is one breed superior to all others "
i would add that only a stupid and ignorant person would believe that.

cinnamon2005 said...

And Timothy got his girlfriend killed in the process. The beauty of dogs, to me, is there is a type of dog for everyone..all sizes, shapes and colors besides different forms and functions. No one individual breed is "better" than another. But as far as the Pitty Posse, I've never seen such a group in the dog world so cult like!

Miss Margo said...

"The problem with banning something is it never fixes it. Look at the war on drugs...prohibition. It never works."

Nice VOICE FROM ON HIGH WISDOM there, guy.

Is this person FFYR? Because FFYR has been trolling my (nothing to do with pit bulls, personal life) blog.

A few points...

Well, I guess if prohibition doesn't "fix" something, society should just stop prohibiting things. Child molestation, incest, murder. I mean, if people are just going to do it anyway, WHAT'S THE POINT OF A BAN? (sarcasm)

Prohibition has MANY objectives, one of which is to make the prohibited activity socially unacceptable. Guilt and shame are very effective mechanisms of social control. Consider drunk driving, or even driving without a seat belt. Yeah, people still to it. Find someone who will cop to it at the office, though.

Prohibition works. If your only standard for policy success is 100% compliance, then of course it will be a failure, like every other law in this country. But in practical terms...? It works, and the data supports that.

dawn james said...

These mutants have a kind of soul that i cannot describe. That is my draw to them. My sweet Haley Jade used to look at me with her eyes like no other dog ever did.

i've seen that look you describe "like no other dog".

Women Who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown

The psychopath's stare has its own allure and may be effective at inducing hypnosis. Many women, before they knew he was a psychopath, thought it was very sexy or intense.There really is something extra powerful to the psychopath's stare. Dr Reid Meloy, in his book Violent Attachments says that men and women have noted the psychopath's unusual and unnerving stare. he referred to the stare as a "relentless gaze that seems to preclude the psychopath's destruction of his victim or target." It is also often referred to as "The Reptilian Gaze" because of its primitive predatory look.

fascinating book. many shared similarities between these women and those drawn to the canine psychopath.

dawn james said...

"While I believe I own shoes that are older than Pit Nutter, which explains his/her naivete.."

:-)

"No one who truly loves dogs believes that there is one "breed" that is superior than another. But it makes perfect sense that an individual who worships a breed of dog created to kill other dogs would devalue other breeds and fantasize that pit bulls are special."

and they fantasize that they themselves are special at the thought of being able to harness their violence and power.

"Prohibition works. If your only standard for policy success is 100% compliance, then of course it will be a failure, like every other law in this country. But in practical terms...? It works, and the data supports that."

EXACTLY!

DubV - as always great logic and as always, i'm sure it was over her head.

"Sorry for the numbers, I know you people don't like math.
I also realize that pit nutters don't like the facts in general, and if you can't suppress them, you'll try to discount them in some way. "

so true Jake

pit nutter: danka for hitting this blog post so hard and increasing its rank in google. hopefully you will help catch mr dine and dash.

cinnamon2005 said...

"The Reptilian Gaze" Great phrase! That is it exactly.

Pit nutter said...

BF you are adorable! There is no doubt that you own 40 year old shoes...you post like an old curmudgeon. And you are wrong about the areas where mutants are...they trickled everywhere...open your eyes. No one is breeding mutts you ignoramus.

You guys took that special soul comment and ran with that one didn't you. That's fine. Clearly you ignored me when i said I don't own a mutant right now and my best friend of the past 13 years has been a Vizsla. My first love was a lab/shep mix when I was a boy. I've loved all dogs my whole life...I have been at this a very long time.

Pit nutter said...

dawn james - you're welcome, I sincerely hope mr dine and dash is caught as well

snarky said...

pit nutter is starting to show its true colours now . i guess, like a mutant, its starting to get irritated with us mere curs .

i wonder if it REALLY is F ... FOR YOUR RIGHTS.

Branwyne Finch said...

Thank you, Pit Nutter...I can only aspire to becoming an official "curmudgeon"....I am working very hard at it.

I live in Mass, and I can say without question that pit bulls in a neighborhood are a sure sign of crime and urban decay. I have lived all my life in New England, in urban, suburban, and semi-rural areas, and can attest to the fact that the more dangerous the neighborhood, the more likely you are to see pit bulls.

Affluent communities generally have better schoool systems, low crime, and are populated by individuals who have a higher level of education, higher incomes, and more assets. I spend a lot of time driving around the Greater Boston area for my childrens youth sports leagues, and you can be sure that I see a lot more pit bulls in gritty Malden...a city now looking to regulated them....than I do in affluent Lincoln. People in affluent communities quite likely finished high school, and took some basic science in college...they are more likely to have a basic understanding of genetics, and can intuit that dogs bred for attacking and killing other dogs don't make safe family pets. They also are more likely to be risk-averse because they have assets, and would not want to own a dog that is a huge liability.


People in affluent communities are also more sensitive to doing anything that affects property values, and the presence of pit bulls in a neighborhood can definitely lower property values, as well as upset neighbors. And since there is less crime, there is no need to own a vicious guard dog as a cheap burgler alarm

Culturally, affluent, educated men are less likely to find status in pit bull ownership, as their social status and success is validated by the fact that the have jobs, homes, sexual partners, cars, etc....and are not simply living in their moms basement, trying to earn respect by walking around town with a "hard-looking" dog.

While a handful of pit bulls may "trickle" into the affluent suburbs, they are generally the result of two things....people who know nothing about dogs being tricked by rescues into adopting a pit bull by mislabeling it...the famous "lab-boxer mix". Or it's because someone, usually a woman, has become involved in the "cause" of pit bull rescue. The latter is usually a form of attention seeking...less about finding a companion animal, and more about a need to create drama and get involved in a "cause". There is something of a Munchausen by Proxy quality to the attraction some women have to the suffering of pit bulls..... I think they thrive on it.

snarky said...

treadwell loved his mutants as well and he knew that although fast and powerfull , if you didnt invade their space or challenge them in any way , you could move amongst them and get away with it for a time. however, his luck and time finally ran out as it does with a lot of pitters who think theyve got things under control. his girlfriend was also so drunk on the idiots cool-aid that she joined him to also be killed by one of his beloved mutants.

cinnamon2005 said...

"While a handful of pit bulls may "trickle" into the affluent suburbs, they are generally the result of"...low self esteem. BTW-I just put this on my blog..not a bad comment I think if I do say so myself. Tell me what you think:
"there is a Pitbull that is helping us! Please him/her! Now let's say a prayer as the pitty is helped to the Rainbow Bridge. Oh! Wait! Pitbulls are banned at the Rainbow Bridge! Well, hopefully he/she can be reincarnated into another breed that is allowed."

cinnamon2005 said...

"Everyday somewhere there is a Pitbull that is helping us! Bless him/her! Now let's say a prayer as the pitty is helped to the Rainbow Bridge. Oh! Wait! Pitbulls are banned at the Rainbow Bridge! Well, hopefully he/she can be reincarnated into another breed that is allowed." Really need to use spellcheck more often.

snarky said...

"munchausen by proxy"
yeah thats it ! and there sure is a lot of nuttiness about these daze.
pitbulls probable are a good indication that things generally are not so good in the mental heath department nowadays.

snarky said...

branwyne. i dont think youre a curmudgeon at all. if you are like most of the rest of us you are some caring , thinking person who has your good reasons for coming down this path.
as for the pitters, dingbats , fuck for their righters, ect , i doubt anyone could honestly say the same.

Branwyne Finch said...

Thanks, snarky, but I have no problem being labeled a curmudgeon. What I am, mostly, is a pragmatic Yankee. I think its cruel and stupid to promote and enable the breeding of dogs with serious temperament defects by bybers and animal abusers, which is exactly what pit bull advocates are doing. I find it no different than those who breed dogs with so many physical deformities that they can't live a normal, pain free life....like the Pekinese that won Westminister that became so over heated simply walking around the ring, he had to be immediately put on an ice pack.

Breeding pit bulls, in and of itself, is an act of animal cruelty....there are simply not enough people out there who can manage them safely. They are deliberately being bred with a defect that leads to their suffering. Promoting pit bulls as family pets and "regular dogs", and placing them in neighborhoods where they go on to injure and kill other companion animals is an act of animal cruelty.

Funneling resources away from other animals in order to subsidize and promote pit bull ownership is an act of animal cruelty. When open admission shelters run out of kennels and have to euthanize dogs because they are overflowing with pit bulls...THAT is cruel. Because humane organizations have become enablers to the bybers and dogfighters, someone has to choose....how many litters of healthy kittens do we euthanize because of lack of resources, while we fund FREE spay and neuter programs for pit owners? How many truckloads of cats do we kill? Is a cat less of a companion...less of a sentient being, less worthy than a pit bull?

And how about horses? Does anyone care that healthy, unwanted companion horses are being sold at auction and sent to slaughterhouses? Does anyone think that a pit bull being humanely euthanized by lethal injection, surrounded by kind and caring shelter staff compares to the terror and pain of a pet horse being beaten into entering the shute to have his head bashed in? We want to subsidize pit bull owners with vet care, training, etc...how about offering to help horse owners who can no longer afford the hay to feed their companion because of a job loss, and whose only option is sending the horse to auction?

And what of other animals? How about rabbits? One of the most cruelly treated, misunderstood, and abandoned pets on the planet? Intelligent, active animals, most doomed to short lives languishing in tiny, sterile hutches....could we put more resources into educating people about what these animals really need?

The pit bull "problem" has an easy solution...mandatory spay and neuter. All the money being funneled into pit bull promotion programs doesn't reduce the number of unwanted dogs, and the general public is too stupid to realize it. Not one organization that is giving away free and low cost s/n of pit bulls has been asked to prove the efficacy of these programs. The number of pit bulls reliquished has not decreased.

Pit bull promoters can call themselves many things, but one thing they are NOT is animal lovers. No true animal lover would want to see the continued breeding of fighting dogs. And a true animal lover would simply want to see less suffering...of pit bulls and other companion animals.

snarky said...

personally, i dont worry too much about the poor misunderstood and demonized mutant. sure , i dont like to see innocent animals suffer but i do like to see pitters suffer, because of pitbulls, because they, along with the breeders, have created , through stupidity , this whole problem. fuck them all and the dogs they think are so great we should be willing to suffer because of.

Pit nutter said...

oh now this is getting good...i am in my 40s and live in an affluent area of RI(Lincoln) and am assotiated with a rescue in an affuent area in Mass(Dennis) so i know you are completely full of it BF!! I have been employed at the largest tech company(EMC) in this area for the past 15 years and do very well(100k+).

You are just plain WRONG! Who am I going to believe you or my lying eyes? lol :)

Pit nutter said...

"The pit bull "problem" has an easy solution...mandatory spay and neuter. "

BF i think we are on the same page here. I am not for the breeding of more mutants. I think there are way too many of them which is the reason there are so many problems with them. Leading to their bad reputation. I think they should all be spayed and neuterd and the only ones breeding should be strictly for show pruposes.

the backyard breeding has to stop...on this we can definately agree

DubV said...

Pit Nutter....at this tech company do they have seminars where they explain to you that a some exceptions do not disprove a general trend? BF did not make any universal statements, and so your contrary data point doesn't do anything to disprove it.

Branwyne Finch said...

LOL, pit nutter, we have very different definitions of "affluent". I don't consider Lincoln R.I. affluent...I was talking about Lincoln, Ma. Average household income in the six figures, median house price just south of 800K, and a great many residents with advanced degrees. Take a ride sometime, you won't see a lot of pit bulls there.

I also don't consider Dennis "affluent", but I imagine being a vacation spot on the cape, you get a lot of visitors with pit bulls. In tourist spots that attract the general public, you are far more likely to see pit bulls then in truly affluent suburbs.

I live in a middle class suburb, a mixture of white collar professionals and working class residents. Though pit bulls are not too common, we have consitently had problems with the ones we have. Attacks on other dogs are common, attacks on humans less common. Most attacks don't make the newspapers. Some have been serious, including a dog that required 3000K worth of vet care after being attacked...unprovoked...while being walked by her owner on leash, on a public sidewalk.

Of the local pit bull owners I know personally, most seem to be white trash townies who don't know any better...out of the few educated professionals I have met who owned pits, one returned the dog to the rescue when it started becoming aggressive with their other dog. Another, a married couple (engineer I think) became neighborhood pariahs when their pit bull jumped their fence and mauled a beloved elderly Golden belonginig to a famiy who had recently suffered the tragic loss of their toddler to cancer. (The pit owner refused to put up a taller fence, and accused the neighbors of "over-reacting" forcing the family to ultimately move)

The last one, an attorney, who was not a very pleasant person to deal with based on my limited interaction with her....I no longer see her walking the pit bull, who was becoming more and more DA as he grew from puppyhood.

By far the most common dog in my area is the lab, with a growing trend of smaller dogs and mixes becoming more common than in the past. Goldens and "doodles" are also common.

But it is pretty much understood that nice, dog-loving families, looking for a family dog, are NOT looking for a pit bull.

Branwyne Finch said...

Yes, pit nutter, we can agree on this....people should stop breeding pit bulls. So, as a pit nutter, how would you go about convincing your fellow pit bull fanatics to agree?

Pit nutter said...

I'm not going to split hairs with you on this like with the dog numbers. The sheer amount of million dollar homes, property taxes and school systems in both towns should be indicators that these are high income areas. Maybe they aren't Beverly Hills...but it certainly isn't the ghetto..

the solution for population control is spay/neuter.

In order to keep people and pets safe you need to educate people who choose to own them on the what they need to do to be safe. As I've stated before....it is pretty easy if you are consistant. Thousands do it successfully everyday.

Branwyne Finch said...

Pit nutter, there are million dollar homes in my town, it doesn't mean much in this area....we still have plenty of working class people. In Mass, 100K a year is not affluent, its solid middle class.

We agree that the solution is spay and neuter, but that hasn't worked, has it? If you are involved in Ma. rescue, you know damn well there is no "dog overpopulation" problem here. Most of the large rescue organizations are taking in dogs from out of state...the south, PR, and the Carribean. Buddy dog, N.E. Animal Shelter, Sterling, they all do this.

There are numerous organizations that offer low cost or free s/n for pit bulls. There are leash laws in most areas. It is RARE where I live to see a dog wandering off leash, and most of the time AC is called immediately when that happens.

Most of the pit bulls that land in the shelter system are not the result of accidental breeding, they are bred on purpose. Humane education worked in Mass, it just didn't work on the types of people who own and breed pit bulls.

We have tried the carrot, its time for the stick...we need legislation in the form of mandatory s/n laws.

You say "we" need to educate people who choose to own potentially dangerous dogs like pit bulls. Who is "we"? Whose responsibility is it to inform prospective owners that their dog has the potential to kill the neighbors child if they don't manage him right?

As far as I can tell, breed stewardship doesn't exist with you pit bull promoters. You have rescues and shelters telling folks to "socialize" their pit bulls at dog parks, you have internet "experts" swearing that pit bulls are "nanny dogs" and are great with children. You have pit bull experts telling the public that pit bulls have to be "forced" to fight other dogs. Then you have the folks at pit bull chat, in their honest yet narccisitic way, explaining that no one should ever trust a pit bull around other animals, and that DA is a genetic trait, which they approve of and embrace as part of the breed. So who should anyone believe?

Why should society allow a small group of dog fanciers to continue to breed dogs with such a serious temperament defect? No AmStaff or APBT breeders, or breed clubs anywhere have agreed to a code of ethics that requires them to breed away from DA. A dog that will suddenlly kill a social partner...another dog....for no reason is a danger to all other domestic pets, as well as humans. Can you imagine how a DA dog might view a dog sized child whose high pitched voice and fast movements trigger his "fight drive"? What about redirected aggression when an owner tries to save his leashed dog from a roaming pit bull?

The pit bull rescue community has been busy doing nothing...they are playing the violin while Rome burns. They don't help pit bulls, which are prisoners of their genetic code. They are directly responsible for the deaths of children, adults, and countless numbers of companion animals.

I would be interested to know if you would support mandatory s/n laws for pit bulls, with reasonable exclusions; for instance, AKC or UKC PR registered dogs which are competing in breed club sanctioned performance or conformation events.

snarky said...

there are exceptions but mutants are usually a younger persons dog , a junk yard dog , a ghetto mutant and a single wide shit -eater in the scungier trailer parks. most people with more than an ice -cream bucket to piss in , have more sense than to take the risks and trouble associated with mutant ownership.

pit-nutter: now tell me the truth....are u fuck for your rights?

dawn james said...

i am always dazzled by branwyne's comments. reminds me of the old EF Hutton commercials.

long live the curmudgeon!

Rag Doll said...

exceptions like RAchel Ray?
:) Just saw this one on http://educatingpeopleaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said....

"In order to keep people and pets safe you need to educate people who choose to own them on the what they need to do to be safe. "

If you give them a true education before deciding to own one, then who will want one? Very few people truly capable of being responsible (perhaps none if you consider that truly responsible people don't want that much responsibility).

Of those who already have them, you can try educating them, but most of them are impervious to this and not interested acting responsibly.

Bagheera Kiplingi said...

7.) Each year, 350 people drown in their bathtubs. You are 151 times more likely to be killed by your bathtub than you are by a mutant.

Bath tubs! Waaaaay too dangerous. I haven't had a bath in 7 years!!

But seriously, your ridiculous logic requires a hefty dose of thorazine followed by a B12 chaser. That's the equivalent to saying traffic accidents only kill 1.2 million people a year. You are 50 times more likely to die from heart disease, stroke, cancer and diabetes, we need to ban unhealthy diets and repeal the rules of the road!

snarky said...

ok pit-nutter , you dont like that question . will you admit to being miss masspits?
- 40 something , rescue angel , pittophile , single?, piercings , tats or other body mods? boy friend in jail? staight , gay , bi or zoo?

sorry, never mind . ignore that last one.

DubV said...

Pit nutters are reduced to saying "our dogs are dangerous, but there are more dangerous things out there. so cut us some slack in that our personal decisions might kill you or someone you love."

Pathetic.

snarky said...

"kids get molested , people shot , millions starving , and all u people can worry about is a handfull of gruesome human fatalies, a few thousand human injuries and a few hundred thousand animal maulings"

snarky said...

i dont care about the numbers so much . all i know is i see a shit load of mutants and their obviously inappropriate , self-entitled owners, almost everywhere i go . so what? your deranged pittophile may ask . well , thats the whole problem , pitters dont see a problem and never will until they decide its not cool to be a jack-ass anymore.

snarky said...

pit nutter: something tells me you'r nothing like the responsible , easy-going yuppie you'd have us believing. what is it about people who like shit-bulls?
you're so fucking predictable. LOL

vintage said...

Another Maul and Haul...This time in Nashville TN:

Man trying to avoid rabies shots...

http://www.wkrn.com/story/17355016/dog-attack-victim-searches-door-to-door-for-vicious-dog

snarky said...

love reading the comments with these stories. same old b.s. about responsible ownership , blame the owner not the breed, any dog will bite , no such breed as a pitbull. fuck, i feel sorry for people who have to live in some of these scummy areas where there is nothing but pits and their ignorant hill-billy owners

Pit nutter said...

bf - i don't promote anything...just trying to get people to leave me alone and out of my business. Most "mutant" sites tell you to avoid dog parks...clearly you don't really care too see what the other side is really saying or you would know that. badrap.org specifically recommends staying away. Your comment about who to believe is troublesome. It sounds like you talked to a lot of people pretending to be experts that clearly are not with all the contradictory information you typed. The information is out there but you still don't believe a word of it.

dawn james - little things amuse little minds

Dubv - correct...i knew you guys would start to catch on eventually. Then the population would go down and the attacks would stop and the mutants would stop showing up in the headlines and you folks can pick up another windmill to slay.

snarky - i hate to be the one to break it to you...it's a dangerous world out there....you can't ban everything that will cause you harm...sorry

Branwyne Finch said...

Pit Nutter..you get Comcast cable in R.I.? Comcast used to have, On Demand, the on-line classifieds. They had an MSPCA show for pet adoptions. My neighbor was looking to rescue a dog, so I watched it. The MSPCA rep was promoting an adoptable pit bull, and told viewers that "HE WOULD BE A GREAT DOG PARK DOG'. Yes, that the Mass SPCA "experts" talking.

Badrap suggests no dog parks NOT because pit bulls pose an inherent elevated risk to other dogs...but because "if a fight happens, no matter how, your pit bull will get blamed". Badrap explains dog aggression in pits as no big deal, a minor inconvenience, perfectly normal, and something that is easily managed. I often wonder if a local women whose child was a classmate of my daughter got her info from Bad Rap. Her pit bull puppy was "wonderful" with her older dog. The pit was well socialized, walked frequently, brought to street fairs, and cared for like any typical family pet.

When her pit was around two, she came home to find her other dog dead...killed by the pit bull. Hey, like BadRap says...dog fights happen!

Most prospective pit owners seem to be getting their information about pit bulls off of the internet, and many, many rescue groups and humane organizations are repeating the false talking points about nanny dogs, etc. You are correct, there are some organizations who are slightly more honest, but the average person looking for a pit bull....whose profile seems to be young, working class...doesn't seem able to sift through the information and find the truth, because there is so much contradictory information out there.

For instance, the REAL pit bull experts know that the quickest, safest way to get your pit bull to release his grip on another animal (or human) is to ALWAYS have a break stick with handy. How many pit bull rescues, shelters, humane organizations, and pit advocates make owning a break stick a condition of adoption? Does the rescue you are affiliated with require pit adopters to own a break stick? That would be practical, and might actually prevent some serious injuries. Yet no one does it. Why not?

My guess is that its because its hard to sell these dogs as safe family pets, if owners are advised to keep a small crowbar handy "just in case".

Pit Nutter, I appreciate your respectful dialog. You suggest that you aren't "promoting" pit bulls, but simply want people to leave you alone and get out of your business. You must realize that communities will only tolerate so many dead children, or disembowled family dogs, before public safety demands regulation of pit bulls. If you are New England, you are aware that Malden is doing just that.

I have suggested one solution that would reduce the number of unstable pit bulls coming from bybers...mandatory s/n legislation. Understand that my solution does NOT exempt ADBA registered dogs from the law, which would cause controversy amongst pit bull enthusiasts...since the game-bred fighting bloodlines are all ADBA dogs.

Do you agree that this might be solution? This, of course, is a form of BSL. If not, what would you propose, to avoid more restrictive solutions, or outright bans?

Pit nutter said...

"When her pit was around two, she came home to find her other dog dead...killed by the pit bull. Hey, like BadRap says...dog fights happen!" thats awful but it is true. Dog fights do happen which is why being a responsible pit bulls owner mean separating the dogs when you leave. It is one of the simple steps you must follow. It really just a matter of crate training.

A responsible dog owner should prevent a dog fight from happening. 2 dogs let alone all day in a house all day everyday will are bound to get in a tiff without proper supervision eventually. With most breeds you would never know because it would be short, minor and over pretty much before it started. Don't set your dog up to fail and it won't. This dog may have been a typical family pet be we don't know the whole story. How balanced were both dogs. Did dog do anything to provoke. A lot of people think their "friendly" lab means well when they are actually highly excited and highly dominant sending off the wrong signals provoking a fight. Dogs communicate in a lot of ways that humans misunderstand.

I don't own a break stick, never needed one. Only heard of one incident in real life when one was needed and a guy used a screw driver. I don't let my dogs get into that "mutant" state to wear a break stick is necessary. This is the point I am trying to get across. My dogs respond to me. My foster now is not used to people or pets and can quickly head towards that state so I am working with him. I am using a ball and a flirt stick. He grabs the ball or toy and you can see his pupils dilate and start to get going. I make him give...sit...calm down and we go at it again. We do similar exercises when introducing new dogs. He does not have aggression issues, he just has not learned how to properly socialize or play. He is actually a very sweet dog that so far gets along with every living being I've introduced him too, people, kids, dogs, pups, cats, and birds. Honestly, I think if you need a break stick, you have a lot of rehabilitation to do on that dog.

I don't support BSL of any kind. I think banning something ignores the problem instead of dealing with it. The problem is a behavior problem. People are not properly taking responsibility of their animals. That is the prism in which I view this issue...I know you see it as the animal itself as being the problem. I just don't see it that way. Besides the LAST thing we need is MORE LAWS!

And it starts with the mutant...you think it stops there? You know there is a growing list right? There is a top 75 hit list and you would be very shocked to see some who made the list. So I would be careful about what you wish for when it comes to bans...once you start.....

Pit nutter said...

1. AIREDALE TERRIER
2. AKBASH
3. AKITA
4. ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5. ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6. ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7. AMERICAN BULLDOG
8. AMERICAN HUSKY
9. AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10. AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11. AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12. ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13. ARIKARA DOG
14. AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15. AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16. BELGIAN MALINOIS
17. BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18. BELGIAN TURVUREN
19. BLUE HEELER
20. BOERBUL
21. BORZOI
22. BOSTON TERRIER
23. BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24. BOXER
25. BULLDOG
26. BULL TERRIER
27. BULL MASTIFF
28. CANE CORSO
29. CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30. CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31. CHINESE SHAR PEI
32. CHOW-CHOW
33. COLORADO DOG
34. DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35. DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36. DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37. ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38. ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39. ESKIMO DOG
40. ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41. FILA BRASILIERO
42. FOX TERRIER
43. FRENCH BULLDOG
44. GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45. GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46. GREENLAND HUSKY
47. GREAT DANE
48. GREAT PYRANEES
49. ITALIAN MASTIFF
50. KANGAL DOG
51. KEESHOND
52. KOMONDOR
53. KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54. KUVAZ
55. LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56. LEONBERGER
57. MASTIFF
58. NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59. NEWFOUNDLAND
60. OTTERHOUND
61. PRESA DE CANARIO
62. PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63. PUG
64. ROTTWEILER
65. SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66. SAINT BERNARD
67. SAMOYED
68. SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69. SIBERIAN HUSKY
70. SPANISH MASTIFF
71. STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72. TIMBER SHEPHERD
73. TOSA INU
74. TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75. WOLF SPITZ

snarky said...

MOTOR-MOUTH

Branwyne Finch said...

Pit Nutter...I am very disappointed in you. I asked you some very specific questions, and you avoided answering me and launched into the same old, cut and paste talking points. We are speaking in a parallel conversation, we are not talking directly.

You agree that pit bulls may be "different" from other dogs, and cannot be left alone together. That's because normal dogs use ritualistic aggressive displays to settle their differences, and rarely cause serious injury when they squabble. Pit bulls have been bred for gameness and DA, to escalate a small squabble into a fight to the death. Please tell me why pit bull breeders should be allowed to continue breeding for this trait. Its cruel, unethical, and immoral.

Your argument keeps referring to what YOU do...your sentences are full of "I, I, I"... whereas I am trying to discuss public policy with you, and you don't have answers.

You say you have a foster dog that is "not used to people or pets and can quickly head towards that state" of aggressive arousal. You then claim you have "been working with him" and have "introduced him to people,kids, dogs, pups, cats and birds". Do you consider yourself infallible? I know a very experienced, professional dog trainer, someone well known in New England as an expert trainer and judge of working dogs in performance trials, who tried to rehab a dog with issues, and untimately misjudged the outcome. The dog tried to bite someone, and it was PTS. Are you a nationally recognized dog trainer with decades of titles on your dogs? Is it possible you could overestimate your success and put someone at risk with your foster?


Do the parents of the "kids" you are introducing to your foster pit know that the dog is an undersocialized foster dog whose background and breeding is largely unknown and that their kids are being used as part of a real world temperament test?

And why foster pit bulls that need "rehabilitation" in the first place? I would imagine with SO many unwanted pit bulls out there being euthanized, it would be far wiser to hand pick ONLY the dogs which appear to have solid temperaments for rehoming. Dogs that need such careful management are the ones that ultimately make the headlines. If you want to avoid bans, then putting time and resources into "project dogs" that are more likely to regress and cause problems makes no sense.

And as for BSL...you are avoiding my question. I did NOT suggest a ban. BSL stands for "breed specific legislation", which does not neccesarily mean bans. I am asking you three things:

1. Do you support the breeding of fighting breeds which carry the genetic trait of gameness and dog aggression?

2. Would you support mandatory s/n of pit bulls, with reasonable exceptions, to address the overpopulation and euthanization of these dogs? (Remember, education hasn't worked)

3. If not, what solutions do you offer that will prevent pit bull attacks on pets/people, and reduce the number of these dogs being produced by the criminals, animal abusers, and bybers currently breeding them?

dawn james said...

shocked? hardly. i am shocked at the gullibility that allows nutters to reproduce this list .

repeating this list of 75 dogs is proof of idiocy. it is proof that you don't read what you copy and paste. it's proof that you are a card carrying moron.

i think i might be the only person to have not only read the list but actually explored it as well.

this list is supposed to represent banned and restricted breeds. please tell where pugs, springers, airedales, labradors, fox terriers and french bulldogs have been banned or restricted. anywhere in the world.

some of these breeds are found no where on the internet except this list which has been repeated ad nauseam.
someone please tell me what an arikara dog is?
how about a kotezebue husky?
colorado dog?
what is an american husky?

italian mastiff = cane corso
alsatian = german shepherd
blue heeler - australian cattle dog
wolf spitz = keeshond
saarloos wolfhound, tundra shepherd, american wolfdog are ALL wolf hybrids with fancy names.

the alapaha bulldog is for all practical purposes an ambull.

dawn james said...

"Badrap suggests no dog parks NOT because pit bulls pose an inherent elevated risk to other dogs...but because "if a fight happens, no matter how, your pit bull will get blamed". Badrap explains dog aggression in pits as no big deal, a minor inconvenience, perfectly normal, and something that is easily managed."


actually donna has changed her tune. she now claims pit bull owners shouldn't take their mutants to dog parks because they are dirty and other people do not supervise their dogs. berkey's money is a powerful incentive.

Miss Margo said...

I, for one, actually am "VERY SHOCKED" to see some of the breeds on the list. Borzoi! Boston Terrier!

Tell us: who manufactured this list, and who is responsible for enforcing its discrimination...?

And why is the list ranked in Alphabetical order? Any reason? Because if they were "the most dangerous dogs," or "the hit list," or whateverthefuck, wouldn't they be ranked by attacks or perceived danger?

It's a "hit list" pulled out of the ether.

Pit nutter said...

"Pit bulls have been bred for gameness and DA, ..Please tell me why pit bull breeders should be allowed to continue breeding for this trait. Its cruel, unethical, and immoral."I agree, it should be against the law to raise game dogs. I don't understand how they get away with it. Most pit bull breeders don't but I know they are out there...they have websites :(

The dog I am fostering now is going to my aunt and I am informing her of his behavior every step of the way. I have asked her several times to do as much research as she can on pit bulls and to make absolutely sure this is what they want to do. I plan to continue working with them. I am by no means infallible or a certified professional.

I don't pick the dogs btw...the dogs pick me. I went in to adopt a mutant and came out with a vizsla 13 years ago...a couple months later I got my mutant and we lived happy for the next 12 years until she passed. I went to get another mutant and the vizsla picked a hound/dobie mix instead. A rescues asked me to look after this big fella for a month I said yea then my Aunt family fell in love at easter. When the foster goes, i'll pick up the next. There was a mastiff a few days ago...so your guess is as good as mine. When my old man goes i want to get a mutant pup but who knows...life happens.

1. Yes, genetic traits don't make the dog unless you bring those traits out in them. all dogs are working dogs and we suppress all of their working traits

2. yes unless a lics. UKC dog that shows

3. i also suggest crimial punishment for dog attacks against people and other pets.

Pit nutter said...

http://www.unitedanimalownersalliance.com/bannedbreeds.html

Pit nutter said...

http://www.povn.com/rdows/banned%20breeds.html

snarky said...

typical idiot pitter.

Miss Margo said...

That first site--"United Animal Owners Alliance"--is such a pitiful farce that I'm shocked you're not too embarrassed to cite from it. Give me a break. You know they just cut-and-pasted that list from another website. Talk about a resume stain!

www.povn.com: activists/lobbyists. Fine, whatever, everyone's entitled to FIGHT FOR THEIR RIGHTS. I've done it quite a bit myself. But come on--they didn't write that breed list. If they did, they'd claim authorship of it. They just cut-and-pasted it, like YOU did.

So: authorship of said "hit list" breed list...? WHO KNOWS?! Citations are not authorship, Pit Nutter. Where does this list come from, and how do the authors expect it to be enforced. That is a reasonable question.

M. Margo

Jake said...

I've seen that list of "banned breeds" before, and I have to say, that's some dry humor. Were the folks who copied and pasted that list together laughing? What I'd really like you to tell us is what locality has ever instituted *that* banned breed list, or anything remotely like it. Well, I know the answer already: nowhere.

Let's face it, the "your breed is next" hysteria is a transparent effort to get dog lovers at large to become unpaid activists for the pit fighting breeders lobby.

Let's take a look at what is actually legislated in BSL. For instance, Denver is the only major US city to have zero human deaths from dog attack in over 20 years. They banned pit bulls after horrific attacks in that city, and that ban has served the people of Denver well. In Denver, lots of large powerful dogs are allowed - Akitas, Great Danes, Rotties, German Shepherds, Dobies - and none of these breeds has killed anyone there. We always hear that "if pits are banned, the bad owners will just pick another breed and make it as bad as pits" - but it didn't happen, did it? And it won't happen, because even though you might be able to make Labs "mean", you'll never make them as unpredictable as pit bulls.

So my point here is that we should learn from what Denver has accomplished, and push for sensible dog ownership laws

snarky said...

i dont like to dignify these snot-nosed know-it-alls. they love someone to yap at , just like the little poodle they would blame if it got chomped on by one their fucking mutants.

Branwyne Finch said...

I am glad we at least agree that SOME forms of BSL would benefit all.

You state that "most" pit bull breeders don't breed FOR dog aggression. What you don't understand is that ALL pit bull breeders...both APBT and AmStafff breeders..accept DA as part of the breed. DA in an AmStaff or APBT is NOT considered a "fault", as it is with most other breeds. The UKC breed standard claims that "most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression". It is part of the breed standard. APBT breeders would not hesitate to breed a DA dog, even if they may not be selecting ONLY for that trait.

In addition, most "breeders" of these dogs are, at best, bybers...., more commonly criminals, drug dealers, gang members, etc. Many are selecting FOR aggressive temperaments, both dog and human. I think you should do some research as to who, in this area, is "breeding" these dogs. There are only a handful of so called ethical breeders in New England, doing hip checks, breeding titled dogs, etc.

As for question number one, you have it backwards....anyone truly knowledgable about dogs understands that you cannot love or train a genetic trait out of a dog. And no, all dogs are not working dogs. Dogs are a eugenics experiment, and many of todays breeds were actually created for the show ring, with fabricated working histories created long ago. Patrick Burns's blog has some very detailed history on a variety of breeds and the men who faked their history to better market them. Its worth reading.

Pit bulls, indeed, are a working dog, and the work they were created to do is now a felony in all 50 states. It is quite frightening to me that you, as someone fostering pit bulls, believes that an owner would have to somehow "bring out" the DA tendency of a pit bull. For pit bulls, fighting is a self-rewarding behavior, just like a Border Collie's desire to herd groups of animals that move. You cannot "socialize" a dog aggressive pit bull into not wanting to fight. If you are going to continue fostering pit bulls, I would suggest you check out what the folks at Pit Bull Chat have to say, and really learn about the breed, in its current state.

I find it incredibly sad that you support the continued breeding of dogs who, through no fault of their own, carry a genetic defect that makes them want to kill other dogs, (and have the physiology to do so). Dog aggression is a miserable trait in a pet dog...in a 5 pound toy poodle, its a nuisance; in a 50 lb pit bull, it can result in life-altering tragedy.

I guess that is what separates you pit bull fanciers from the rest of us. I actually have seen a pit bull kill another dog in a completely unprovoked attack, many years ago; the pit grabbed the smaller dog by the neck and crushed its throat. Two grown men couldn't pry the pit off until they beat it unconscious. It took a good five minutes for the smaller dog to die, screaming and screaming in pain and confusion. The pit bulls tail was wagging the entire time.

Its very revealing to know that you want breeders to continue breeding for that particular behavioral trait, which is a genetic defect. I find it cruel and stupid, as I said earlier.

dawn james said...

i have tried to trace that list back to the original liar and i think the credit belongs to washington state pit nutter/breeder cherie graves of rdows. she probably cooked it up with fellow washington pit nutter/violent felon glen bui.

http://www.povn.com/rdows/banned%20breeds.html

DubV said...

Pit Nutter said....

"1. Yes, genetic traits don't make the dog unless you bring those traits out in them. all dogs are working dogs and we suppress all of their working traits"

I'm sure other have or will mention this statement. It's wrong or simply wrongheaded. So, what if a beagle slips up and follows its instincts to bugle and chase scents? Worst case scenario is a lost or annoying dog. I think most working dog traits are part of their charm and people enjoy their retrievers retrieving. As far as all dogs being working dogs, are you not aware of the many breeds created just to be companions? If you call that a job, then so be it, but I don't think you were taking them into account.

DubV said...

Jake said..

"I've seen that list of "banned breeds" before, and I have to say, that's some dry humor."

This is classic, I'm going to steal this general line to drop once in a while.

DubV said...

BF said.....

"You state that "most" pit bull breeders don't breed FOR dog aggression. What you don't understand is that ALL pit bull breeders...both APBT and AmStafff breeders..accept DA as part of the breed. DA in an AmStaff or APBT is NOT considered a "fault", as it is with most other breeds. "

True. And common genetic traits do not drift out unless there is breeding away from it. Genetic drift works in both directions and left to chance, DA can just as easily increase in the population.

april 29 said...

pit nutter said

" i don't promote anything...just trying to get people to leave me alone and out of my business."

I have to say that this statement resonates with me. I was happily enjoying my life when pit bull violence changed it, my life will never be the same. Most folks, even victims, would have little problems with pit bulls if the violence remained within your own society. When innocent people and their peaceful pets are victimized by dogs bred to kill and the owners of those dogs respond with "it's the victim's fault, my dog is a sweetheart and will just lick you to death, it is my right to have any kind of dog I choose, nobody can identify a pit bull, I'm a responsible pit bull owner, the media creates hysteria, pit bulls get a bad rap, in the 70s it was the doberman" on and on with the breed specific excuses, this does not work. We would have liked it A LOT if pit bull owners left us alone and kept out of our business. Now that it is done, don't blame us for demanding regulation. The concept of shame is not on the radar of pit bull advocacy.

dawn james said...

april13, your comment totally kicks ass.

dawn james said...

meanwhile... friends of mine who were quietly minding their own business just informed me of their recent encounter with pit bull violence. their animals who were also minding their business on their own property, spent their last hours on earth mangled and in pain & fear until they were humanely euthanized.

Branwyne Finch said...

DubV...you are 100% correct. I see this every day with my own dog. He is a bench bred setter with a 6 generation pedigree of conformation champions...not a field trial champion or a real hunter in the bunch. Yet he will regularly hold a point to mark game, in a classic setter stance; complete with the dramatically raised paw. He has the exagerated orienting response...I have watched him frozen, pointing a squirrel or bird in the yard...gone and made myself a cup of coffee, come back several minutes later to see him STILL frozen.

None of his ancesters for the past 7 decades were selectively bred for this behavior,yet the genetic code remains. Of course, this doesn't mean he would be successful in the field...he is larger and slower than a field bred dog, and lacks the intense drive and birdiness of a working bird dog. Yet, even though breeders did not SELECT for the behavior, they did not select AGAINST it, so it remains a BREED SPECIFIC, (and harmless) behavior.

And as you pointed out, when my dog feels compelled to execute this particular motor pattern, he is not putting anyone else, or their pets, at risk. His pointing birds, wild turkeys, and squirrels is little more than amusing.

dawn james said...

one of my dogs is a pointer/border collie mix. he has the IQ of the border collie but absolutely no desire to herd. his behavior is all pointer and it's quite impressive. i'll never forget the first time i saw him flushing or the first time he pointed. wow. i wouldn't know where to begin in how to teach or even encourage him to point.

everyone understands the power of genetics EXCEPT a pit nutter. refusal to acknowledge the power of DNA is the trait that what defines what it means to be a pit nutter.

Pit nutter said...

april 29, you were a victim. You can either be a victim for the rest of your life or you can pick of the pieces and you can move on. Nothing is going to fix what happened to you. I've been car jacked at gun point other people have been raped others stabbed. Shit happens....life is dangerous..get over it and yourself.

My Vizsla points too..YAY! There are some that don't and won't. You guys are wrong about the DA...no reputable breeder wants it...they are all trying to get rid of it. It's all over their sites...but they must be lying, right? Every one I look at constantly promotes how social their dogs are and how they are the ones changing the breed for the better etc etc

this is starting to bore me...dawn james don't you have another topic to post about?

also dawn james if you understood genetics even a fraction as much as you think you do than according to your theory every single pit bull really would be an uncontrollable mutant that went after everything that moves. Is that the case? Has your tiny mind clouded up that much? Is any reality allowed in your bubble?

Miss Margo said...

Ah yes, nothing like a smug asshole shouting at you to "get over it" and accusing you of having a 'victim mentality.'

Pit Nutter, you are trying to shame April 29 and dismiss and/or invalidate her experience and opinion. You are saying, basically: "Shut the fuck up! Quit whining!"

Who are you, to tell her that she is not entitled to feel angry and frightened by what she has witnessed?

You just don't like hearing what you don't like hearing. Suit yourself, then--GET LOST. The net is full of Pit Bull forums where you can complain about people who were hurt by pit bulls all the live long day.

Then you say: DAWN JAMES THIS IS BORING ME...! As if the point of this website is to fucking entertain you, Pit Nutter! As if entertaining you was the goal for which we all strove!

That's the crux of your problem right there, Pit Nutter: "I am entitled to be entertained! I come to troll on your website and you are not ENTERTAINING ME!"

How old are you, 5...?

M. Margo

april 29 said...

You make a mistake pit nutter, I am no longer a victim, I am an advocate for public safety. Every victim says the same thing when a reporter sticks a microphone in our faces and asks for a comment "nobody should have to go through this." You will find some folks who refuse to take their maulings and shut up. This IS how I have picked up the pieces and moved on. Those who have been victimized by your breed of choice will continue to demand regulation.

You are pulling arguments out of thin air when you state that "reputable (pit bull) breeders breed away from DA". By definition, there are no "reputable pit bull breeders." "Reputable breeders" do not produce hundreds of thousands of puppies with no prospects of a permanent, and abuse free home. Pit bulls are a product of back yard breeders, these people are producing a product at the least possible cost. There is no thought behind the process, unless you consider "monsta Pits" a fine and honorable goal.

If you understood genetics, you would be able to grasp some simple concepts, like not every pit bull will become violent, but they all carry it in their DNA. Remember, they were bred for it.

dawn james said...

of course not EVERY border collie makes a great herding dog, not EVERY lab makes a great retriever and not EVERY pit bull makes a great fighter. there will always be duds.

here's a dog aggression poll for you. this is typical of the polls on the pit bull forums that my closed mind has come across:

Should breeders be working to eliminate the dog-aggression in the APBT?
YES 19.57%
NO 67.39%
Undecided/unsure or Other 13.04%

please burst my reality bubble and show me that you actually posses more knowledge than i do.

DubV said...

dawn james said...

"everyone understands the power of genetics EXCEPT a pit nutter. refusal to acknowledge the power of DNA is the trait that what defines what it means to be a pit nutter."

And another defining nutter trait, I'd say, is not being able to realize when you've been owned. Pit Nutter has been given a new asshole about 50 times now, and still at it. It's becoming a monty python skit, really. Narcissists often believe that if you disagree with them, it must because you didn't understand them. Hence the repetitive cycle of the same bullshit, if you're lucky said a slightly different way each time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsG_RWwEe00

Miss Margo said...

DubV: total monty python skit. I gave up boozing, but reading this thread made me want to shotgun scotch.

There is a mystifying disconnect between how nutters see themselves, and how everyone else sees them. Though this is true for everyone--as every MA psych student can tell you--I think it's present in spades in nutters.

Take, for instance, FuZupf. He goes out of his way--FAR out of his way--to minimize or negate the awful truth of pit bull attacks.

He doesn't see it.

snarky said...

was looking at a young dog today , about 6 months old i guessed. i didnt ask what it was but i suspected a pitmix from its expression and its yellow slanty eyes. a woman approached the dog in a very friendly way but this set off a spasm of aggression. she said it must be her walking stick and i said no, its a pitbull. the woman wisely walked away and after i while i tried a friendly approach too and the same thing happened again. after awhile the owners came back .....two kids about 10 -13 years old i would guess.

snarky said...

how great to be told as a victim or a concerned pet owner to just move on , get over it , its no big deal , there are worse things and shit happens . i wonder how philosophical a pit-nutter will be if i have do something drastic in order to save mine or someone elses dog. actually, i have witnessed such a scenario already and it wasnt pretty . all the simpering and crying over a dirtnapping. yea, its true, pitters have one standard for mutants and another for all lesser dogs .

april 29 said...

Good point Snarky. Classic example is the female nutter in, I think Tenn. In any case, her mutant "somehow" broke containment and attacked FIVE people in the same rampage. Of course the mutant's owner said her dog is NOT,vicious. The courts have held to another opinion, multiple hearings. Ms Nutter was into legal defense for about seventeen grand, must be up to about twenty grand now. She is still fighting to save her misunderstood wigglebutt. I do not recall that she paid anyone's medical bills though....

Branwyne Finch said...

Pit Nutter, please put up or shut up. I can find about half a dozen "responsible" ABPT and AmStaff breeders in all the New England states. Last time I looked, none had litters on the ground. "Responsible" pit bull breeders are so rare, they are statistically insignificant. The dogs you see in rescue would not be coming from "ethical breeders". Please show me where all these "ethical" breeders in Massachusetts are.

I can go to Yankee Golden Retriever Club website, and find dozens of breeders who meet the definition of "responsible, ethical" breeders.

Show me any New England based pit bull breed club whose code of ethics states specifically that their members WON'T breed DA dogs. Show me what kennels you think are an example of "responsible" breeders. The "responsible" breeder of Amstaffs near the Cape has this on her website..

"Dog aggression is a trait of the American Staffordshire Terrier, and this trait must be accepted and understood if you are looking to own this breed of dog."

Why don't you prove me wrong, and show me some kennels which are "responsibly" breeding away from DA...or this this merely something you "heard" from a fellow fanatic on the internet? Back up your assertions with proof.

april 29 said...

Crickets... I hear crickets...

snarky said...

ive said it before but....

i dont suffer fools but i like it when fools suffer. the pitter with a drowned mutant , shot , bled ,impaled,or bludgeoned or just huge legal bills.

snarky said...

whether they know each other or not u can bet they both think alike and probably act alike. of course all these posting pitters have been brain-washed by the same crap on the pro-pit sites. we hear the same deceptions , half-truths and out-right lies regurgitated like pablum for the pitter masses, over and over again from these mutant loving dummies. sickening.

dawn james said...

uh-oh. me thinks pablum will awaken the angry cyclona beast.

snarky said...

pablum sweetened with southern comfort?

Branwyne Finch said...

Pit Nutter said...

"You guys are wrong about the DA...no reputable breeder wants it...they are all trying to get rid of it. It's all over their sites...but they must be lying, right? Every one I look at constantly promotes how social their dogs are and how they are the ones changing the breed for the better etc etc"

I am simply asking for you to link us to a few of these sites...easy enough. If "every one" you look at claims to be selecting for the temperament quality of being "dog social" then please enlighten us. I am very good at using "the google", and I have checked national and regional breed club websites, looking for "ethical" breeders of AmStaff and APBT, and I cannot find "multiple"m kennels breeding away from DA. You made the statement, please back it up.

I have been respectful, and was willing to listen to what you had to say. Please don't waste my time by simply pulling stuff out of your ass and pretending its fact.

Pit nutter said...

http://www.eternitykennels.com/
http://www.dogdayskennel.com/

Pit nutter said...

now do your own research

Pit nutter said...

thats right...get over it. Harsh? yes..sorry. That's were this convo went. You folks brought it there with your tone against me. I have been very civil this entire time until provoked.

But to be blunt..yes...get over it. Fix the people not the property(dogs). You constantly try to belittle my intelligence but how you can get that simple idea through your little pea brains is just humorous.

This blog is entertainment for me....almost caused a relapse for one of you guys...time to ring up your sponsor bud...get a grip.

You must not have any real responsibilities in life if this takes up that much mental capacity.

You guys want this to go back to being nice and civil and light hearted....stop being assholes and i'll do the same..trust me i can bring it and am not going anywhere...i'll have you in a drunken stupor beating your wife before you know it...don't even get me started on politics lol

snarky said...

"simply pulling stuff out of your ass and pretending its fact"
yeah branwyne, thats what i think it is too. love the way these fuckers are always talking about research as though the sites they go to are putting out truth.

snarky said...

" fix the people not the dogs "
i totally agree shit-head , but its your type thats likely to be a wife-beater and have a sponsor.

snarky said...

im free to waste time on you shit-heads like u pit-nutter cuz i have minimal responsibilities and thats the way i like it. im lucky that way but still no matter how free and comfortable i am i would never want the responsibility you idiots take on gladly . harbouring a fucking mutant.

snarky said...

" fix the people not the dogs"
thats a good idea "pit nutter" but somehow i dont think u meant it that way... lol. what u meant by "fix" is education and friendly persuasion ect . sorry, but, boneheads can be "fixed" that way. glad u brought it up though instead of me. also your mutants cant be fixed that way either , except by the same methods that need to employed against you bone-head owners. lol again.

Branwyne Finch said...

Thanks, pit nutter...now see if you can follow me.

For whatever reason, you picked two kennels out of Florida. The first one is, indeed, a responsible breeder, doing mostly conformation and some performace. They have 6 dogs, all conformation champions. The dogs have all necessary health screenings, OFA, cardio, etc. Like most ethical hobby breeders, they don't breed very often. They have no puppies available, and if they did, chances are they would all go to show homes, from a waiting list. I would bet no puppy from this breeder has EVER landed in a shelter.

No where on this breeders website does she state that she is actively breeding away from DA...she is breeding to the UKC/AKC standards, which she links to. The UKC standard says DA is not a fault. The AKC standard actually says the dogs can be "protective" of their family, which would indicate a certain amount of HA with strangers is acceptable.

Again, breeders like this probably account for less than 1% of the pit bulls out there in the community. I have no problem excluding this breeder from mandatory s/n laws.

The second link you posted in a puppy mill. If it wasn't so sad, this would be funny. Anyone with a credit card can order a puppy over the internet from this "kennel". They have 8 litters currently on the ground! That is most likely anywhere from 60 to 80 puppies! Do you think these puppies are being carefully socialized, and evaluated by this breeder? This breeder has no titled dogs....under "Champions" they show one dog and have photoshopped a bunch of third place ribbons to try to prove he was shown! None of the dogs are titled in anything, none have CGCs, etc. There are NO health screenings listed, despite the fact that APBT and AmStaffs have some of the highest rates of HD of all dog breeds (around 25% of ogs tested are dysplaystic, according to the OFA)

They breed "blue" dogs, with genetic autoimmune disorders...read their disclaimer

"Skin and coat conditions that may arise in any "Blue" coat puppy is NOT a part of this health guarantee and as such NO warrantee is made with respect to any genetic or acquired skin or coat condition in any "Blue" dog that we sell. PLEASE BE ADVISED, the "Blue" coat American Stafordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier is a dilute color that IS KNOWN to have skin and coat issues in some individuals."

They DON'T screen for HD or Cardiac problems, then have a "contract" that exempts them from refunding your money for a dog with hip and heart problems!

They have no buyer application, but sell you a dog after a "phone conversation".

They claim to be breeding dogs for "zeroaggression", yet where is the proof? Where are the CGCs, CDs, CDX's, etc? These dogs are kennel dogs, they are not whelped in the house and raised around family. How much time is spent with 80 puppies?

This is a marketing ploy/angle that bybers/puppy millers use to fool gullible people such as yourself. You can't really believe that someone who doesn't even care enough to do the minimal health screenings is REALLY "carefully evaluating" temperament in a breeding program?

Its really concerning that someone involved in "rehabilitating" rescue dogs knows so little about dogs that they would give a puppy mill as an example of a responsible pit bull breeder.

snarky said...

good job BF , but again, "pearls cast before swine". reasoning with idiots is a dirty job but someones got to try ,i suppose . better you than me though , i dont have much stomach for it.

april 29 said...

Branwyne, in 25 years of Ring Stewarding Obedience Matches I have seen absolutely zero Amstaffs or APBT in Open or Utility, just two in Novice. There may be some out there but they are mighty rare.

Pitter said "You folks brought it there with your tone against me. I have been very civil this entire time until provoked."
A victim "provoked" you by existing? This irritated you to the point of loss of your
"civil" nature? "...i'll have you in a drunken stupor beating your wife before you know it..." this is the expected response to the loss of your "civil nature"? You have a lot more problems than you let on. Possibly a restraining order or two are the reasons you have so much time to devote to this.

How very sad for you.

snarky said...

where'd it go ? the nutter.
oh yeah , responsibilities....dog food , i mean mutant, food to pay for. outstanding debt to the tattoo parlour. child support payments ..lol. off to work for a big meany corporation or perhaps to the pitbull rescue facility where lessor dogs are not wellcome , probably. lol. ahhh the life of a rescue nutter!! lol

snarky said...

" possibly a restraining order or two ....."
very intuitive april 29, u could have nailed it there. i think the drunken wife beater comment might have a fruedian slip of the poor nutter. if ukno what i mean?

snarky said...

ah well , snarkys getting tired now . good job BF and april 29. we can rest easier now we dealt with that mutant loving rescue dingbat. lol and oh yeah ....have a nice day BONEHEAD. lol.

Branwyne Finch said...

April, that's exactly what my friends who compete in obedience and agility tell me. They don't see pit bulls. I am sure there are a few, but they exist as outliers.

I think the gene pool existing within the "responsible" pit bull community is very small; this would explain the OFA stats. To have a quarter of the dogs being tested come up with HD....they must be line breeding, or lowering their styandards and breeding some dogs with marginal hips.

I am always interested to hear what these pit bull rescuers are really thinking...I think part of being an intelligent adult means keeping an open mind and adjusting your opinions throughout your lifetime. My opinions about many things have changed and evolved over the years, as new information became available, or as life experience helped me see things from a different angle. I have a large, diverse group of friends, and avoid surrounding myself with people who are "just like me".

The pit bull fanatics seem to all fit a certain profile. They employ magical thinking, have very rigid beliefs, are not willing to accept information that contradicts their current world view. They all fancy themselves as experts, and are not open to learning from others.

Branwyne Finch said...

Not to belabor the point...but this conversation reminded me of a short film I once saw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo

The film maker approaches a group of anti-abortion protesters and respectfully asks them if they think abortion should be legal or illegal. They all rightously decalre that it should be illegal..several explain that "abortion is murder". He then asks them what they think the penalty should be for women who have an illegal abortion...how much time should the woman serve?

The responses are fascinating....as one journalist describes, they are all "gob-smacked". None of them have ever really thought through the logical consequences of their cause. They are all so passionate about their belief, but when asked a logical question...if abortion is murder, and murder is illegal, shouldn't you put thses women in jail? They have NO answer. They act stunned.

This is very much like the pit bull advocates.....when you ask them logical questions, like "if dog fighters and back yard breeders are breeding and abusing pit bulls, wouldn't it make sense to regulate them and reduce the suffering of pit bulls?" They can't answer. They haven't thought their position through. The "Lets adopt our way out of this!" mantra seems to be the easy fall back. But when you try to really drill down into the pit bull advocates argument, they can't really seem to defend it with logic.

snarky said...

to choose a fighting breed and then claim you dont want that genetic heritage makes sense only to a nut . i mean really , why not just avoid the breed if u dont like what it was intended to be . all this dancing around the fact of what this breed is all about just to deny ones own stupidity and ones own real desire for that kind of dog . its true though that if pitbulls were totally iradicated from the face of the earth , (thankfully) , that pitters would just choose another aggressive breed . thats proof of what pitters really are.

snarky said...

hope p. nutter has a good day at the pitbull palace...home for neglected and abused pitties. its really sad but thank goodness theres some brave souls willing to step up and stand up for our four-legged bullies with aggression issues. its a lot of work and scooping but someones got to do it. pitties are the most abused and demonized breed on earth and the work takes it emotional toll , im sure. i hope p. nutter stays safe and makes many more pittie and pitter friends today .
god bless them all

Bagheera Kiplingi said...

That emotional toll likely explains their propensity for drunken stupors, wife beating, magical thinking and lack of critical thinking skills. There is nothing left of them at the end of the day.

Brilliant analogy with the anti-abortion kooks Branwyne. Can't wait to see if the pit nutter knight re-emerges for another round.

snarky said...

p.nutter will probably come home singing and dancing . the camaraderie at the pittie palace, the chubby rescue angels and sweet pitties scampering chaotically about the reception area . it would make for a cheerfull and invigorating work place , im sure. p. nutter surely will be rearing up on the hind legs again real soon .....watch-out, lol.

BB said...

Pit nutter is just another rescue angel with a lion tamer complex - she is "rehabilitating" a pit with aggression issues so that she can home it with HER AUNT - and I'm not sure why anyone is wasting time on her anymore. These kind of people will never see why pit bulls should be regulated, they simply don't have the capacity. Sadly, they also represent the majority of owners and all of the reasons gripping breeds need special regulations.

Now, that said, I'm going to bring up something that has bothered me for awhile in our arguments. I think that the nutter side has a point when they declare that other breeds/types of dog can be made aggressive. Possibly even to the degree that gripping dogs are. There, I've said it. I'm not sure what it means in terms of legislation, and I certainly don't think it is an argument for doing nothing, but I think failing to address it as a possibility is harming our side.

Sorry.

DubV said...

BB

Object A is inherently dangerous if actions B,C, and D are NOT performed perfectly

Object E can be made nearly or equally dangerous to Object A if actions F, G, and H are performed sufficiently, with actions F to H usually be illegal (like beating the dog)

It's apples and oranges.

Object A = pit
Object B = lab

For the average pit to be acceptably safe infallible humans must behave in a highly responsible/nearly infallible way, and irresponsible actions will make things even worse with highly irresponsible/abusive actions being the worst state.

For the average lab to be safe, nothing particular must be done except bare minimum dog keeping. To make them dangerous requires highly irresponsible and/or abusive actions.

If nutters and others think this is a point on the nutter side, then I hardly think we are to blame.

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