this mutant killed a small dog at montrose beach last month.
Anyone with information on the man’s identity can call police at 312-744-8320.
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236 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 236 of 236oh yeah potentially any breed could be selectively bred to become more aggressive and to become stronger , more fearless and single-minded, more pain tolerant and to hold on like a mutant does. if it was done with the early bull dogs it probably could be done again . how about a nasty strain of chihuahua that wants to engage anything on four legs. it could replace the pitbull as a dog for idiots
Or this..
Common fertilizers can be made as dangerous as nitroglycerine if the fertilizers are subjected a series of steps and therefore....what?
BB -
I'll admit that if we knew nothing about dogs or genetics, and had no history to go on, it would certainly sound feasible that other dogs could be made to act like pit bulls. But to do that, knowing what we know, we'd have to ignore a whole lot of genetics, and forget everything we know about the history of the fighting breeds.
If it were really feasible to make normal dogs as violent and unpredictable as pit bulls, wouldn't they have already done it in places like Denver?
The genetic makeup of the pit bull is an unfortunate consequence of being bred for a completely perverted and unnatural life, i.e. attacking and killing other dogs in the pit, for the amusement of people who get their kicks watching animals being killed. The pit bull could never have arisen naturally, that is to say, without the careful, sustained and deliberate efforts of the sadistic sociopaths who bred them for the pit.
In over 180 years, nobody has been able to come up with a more extreme pit bull, unless you count modern pit bull mixes like the ambull, or dogs comprised of much the same breeds as pit bulls, and looking much like pit bulls as a result.
Let me put it this way: you can mistreat a lab and make him mean, but he will never be as unpredictable as a pit bull.
There are other dogs, larger and stronger than pit bulls, other dogs with higher bite force than pit bulls, but they don't pose the danger that pit bulls do, and they don't show up in attack statistics like pit bulls do, because they lack the insane killer temperament.
Now, theoretically, one could start with non-pitbull dogs and breed them, selecting for the insane killer temperament, the unpredictability, and the gameness (the desire to fight, to continue the attack, and to ignore pain and injury) and might eventually come up with something as dangerous. But do you really think any of the idiots who want that type of dog have the time, know-how and resources to pull it off?
craven : is the cyclona beast slumbering ? does she need some trite catch phrases to awaken her ? some transparent deception or some foul misrepresentations?
cyclona : dear , i have a new smile for you , not as bad as b.p's but not nice either.
jake . i didnt know all that, but it sounds reasonable. all i know is i see enuf bad- ass mutants to be carefull of them. chihuahua's too, because they often pal with pits and might pick up some bad things .....kidding . deys like skinny baby mutants .lol
i've never denied that there are other dangerous dogs. i'm not aware of anyone here making that claim either. wolf hybrids, rottweilers, bullmastiffs, cane corsos, flock guardians, akitas, chows, belgian/dutch/german shepherds, any breed that excels in protection sports poses an increased risk. i wonder if any of these other breeds of dogs have ever had to be pried off of their victim after they were killed when a battery of non lethal options failed?
Dub, I'm not talking about existing breeds of dogs. Believe me when I say I understand the differences between gripping breeds and Labradors. Clearly, right now, with no shortage of grippers the people who want fighting dogs will choose those breeds. I'm talking about that hazy future we all hope for where gripping breeds are all but legislated out of existence. We have acknowledged that there are outliers, in terms of inherent aggression, in all breeds. I am not convinced that it would take very long to breed those outliers into a population of extremely aggressive dogs of any breed. Yes, even Labs.
So, what does that mean for regulation? The question I've been grappling with is the fact that, while gripping breeds need to be regulated now, we are likely to come to point where other breeds are bred to fight if BSL is successfully implemented. The argument that BSL will beget more BSL may have a degree of merit and I think it is something we need to acknowledge.
First off, I don't believe that any of the gripping breeds should be exempt from any special legislation aimed at pit bulls. There is no question in my mind that Cane Corsos and Bullmastiffs would be every bit as well-represented in the fatality stats if they were as numerous.
What I am talking about is the potential to take dogs that are currently benign and create a sub-population of the breed that is inherently aggressive, unpredictable, and dangerous to the population at large. Why hasn't this happened in Denver? Well, if Denver is anything like Ontario it is because the legislation is weakly enforced and because they did not include all of the gripping breeds. The laws of supply and demand dictate that Cane Corsos, Dogos, and Filas are too expensive for most former pit owners right now so they haven't replaced the ubiquitous pit - yet. I think at some point that will change OR we will begin to see breeding of sub-populations of currently non-aggressive breeds that will be suitable for fighting. I don't think the dogmen (and the incredibly wealthy and powerful lobby that currently supports them) will lie down and roll over.
So, again, how does this affect the policy we'd like to see? For me, it suggests that we need to start keeping stats and basing legislation on them, at least partly, so that ongoing trends can be addressed.
For BB, From the ASPCA website.
"Q. Can All dogs Be Trained to Fight?
No. Much like herding dogs, trailing dogs and other breeds selected for particular roles, fighting dogs are born ready for the training that will prepare them to succeed in the pit, and are bred to have a high degree of dog aggression."
The very same website that tells us that pit bulls are just like every dog and that they make great family pets? April, really? And I'm not talking about taking a happy-go-lucky secondhand Lab and beating it into aggression, I'm talking about the potential to take Labradors (or any breed, really) and turn them into inherently aggressive dogs with the same traits as pits have now. How many generations would it take? I would guess that in less than 10 years you could breed the most aggressive of the litter to the most aggressive of the litter and come up with Labs that live to grip and fight. What you just did is EXACTLY what bothers me about this point. We glaze over the possibility that other dogs can be bred to be like pits and I think it weakens our current position tremendously.
I'm not suggesting that it means BSL shouldn't be in place, but I have been thinking that it means more will need to be done. BSL now for gripping breeds now, definitely, but in combination with other policies that prevents breeding FOR aggression in other breeds and provides for ways to deal with the rise of other aggressive breeds.
google "dmitri belyaev russian fox farm experiment"
For some reason only 200 comments will load unless I submit something first (then the rest show up). Sorry for these comments which don't seem to be in step with the last things said...
Yes I'm familiar with it, but I'm not sure how it relates to breeding within a species. We have been able to manipulate the external features of dogs and maintain lack of aggression (ie from a pug to a beagle to a retriever). The gripping breeds look alike, no question, but they also share the same genes - why mess with what isn't broken, while they can still have those dogs there is no drive to change their phenotype. But perhaps the appearance of a breed would change if you bred for aggression and gripping - when would a Lab with an oversized head and heavy musculature not be a Lab if it were papered? I don't think you could make that argument in the courts.
Anyway, I won't beat a dead horse, I realize I am in the minority. This subject just eats at me and it was doing so as I went through these comments. I am never satisfied with the answers I am able to give when confronted with "they'll just breed other breeds for aggression" in the newsgroup discussions that I participate in.
"Pit bulls, indeed, are a working dog, and the work they were created to do is now a felony in all 50 states"
Anyone who has even the remotest understanding of dog breeding, genetics, and canines in general knows that this is the truth.
I will say, however, that regarding "responsible" Staffie breeders, when the surface is scratched, they are found to be very very irresponsible. As for New England breeders, Holly Gump springs to mind. Lots of surface preening about being "responsible," but scratch the surface and find she's on the board of NAIA with actual criminals including the puppy mill industry, and also manipulating animal control officers to protect vicious dogs. They all fail when they are really examined.
As for the "pit nutter" comments here
These people are all a certain type. I always think it is rather amusing when these oddball, outcast, egotistical strange men who have sought solace for their loneliness in the pit bull religion ramble on with the teenager speak "dunnos" and the blatant lies characterised as "common sense."
These are the kinds of people that you change seats on the bus to get away from.
They have now figured out they can force themselves on others using fighting breeds, and take out their anger at others by insisting that sane people allow themselves and their pets to be attacked.
"Pit nutter" is just another dog dealer, albeit with a "holier than thou" rescue ego so he can pretend superiority in his inferiority.
In the end, he will destroy his fairy tale when he deals a killer to the public, and is held responsible.
The really ridiculous thing about sad fools like this is that they are only enabling the breeders and dog fighters to persecute these dogs even more. Pit nutter is too stupid and egotistical to understand even that.
Pit nutter is a particular type. These guys are all the same. Honestly, they are like robots.
They came from a middle class background, but didn't quite "fit in" because they have massive egos and a lack of social skills due to the fact that they are continually expressing superiority and trying to dominate and tell other people what to do.
Unattractive, pudgy, or physically freail and wimpy. Some of them taught to hate others by their parents. Look at a picture of Nathan Winograd. One angry middle class wimp looking to take revenge by assaulting others.
Most of them have no real relationships with other people, either women or a close male partner. They are angry but they never take responsibility for themselves and examine why people don't like them. They are unlikeable, lousy, asocial people.
Pit nutter! a normal, secure, 40 year old educated male in the tech industry would be busy raising a family with his wife or partner, and participating in community events and busy with work. A normal, secure 40 year old male wouldn't be hanging out with strange asocial middle class women, preaching at the altar of fighting breeds and doing harm to the dogs and helping dog fighters.
Your ego is leading you astray again.
No 40 year old successful business man has the time to be "fostering" fighting dogs and fooling around with goofy girls worshipping at the altar of pit bull.
"United Animal Owners Alliance"
Puppy mills and dog fighters.
A version of
http://www.
sourcewatch.
org/index.php?
title=National_
Animal_Interest_
Alliance
BB, to see all posts, click on the individual blog post, which loads 200 responses...then click on "Newest."
To answer your concern, no group of breeders would bother taking a retriever and trying to make it into a guard dog/fighting dog (yes, it would take a significant group to do this), because there are plenty of guarding/fighting breeds already existing that would be easier to take from protective to full blown indiscrimiately aggressive. There are several other breeds every bit as dangerous as pit bulls out there.....but, thankfully, they are rare, and there is no current, organized PR campaign trying to convince people that Presa Canarios make great family pets.
I don't think that any of the molossar breeds will replace the niche pit bulls have, for a variety of reasons. Their size alone makes them expensive and difficult to care for, feed, conceal from neighbors and authorities, and transport. Cane Corsos, Presas, Filas, Boarbels (sp),Dogue de Bordeux, all are plagued by the typical health problems common to giant breeds...so bybers and criminal types trying to breed them will likely end up with a bunch of dogs which are crippled with HD by the end of their first year, suffering from cherry eye, blindness, heart problems, etc.
If we regulate the breeding of pit bull type dogs, it will send a strong message to the breeders of other dangerous breeds that they need to self police, and make sure their dogs remain RARE, and only owned by people capable of managing them. It will create a strong incentive for breeders to make sure they keep their breed out of the headlines. If they don't, then they may face the same regulations as pit bull type dogs. I don't think many Americans have even heard of most of these breeds, so VERY few dog owners would be affected if you shut down the bybers of Boerbels. And again, you could exempt UKC show dogs.
I would predict that dog fighting criminals may try to use American Bulldogs and Dogos as replacements for pit bulls, if they are not included in mandatory s/n regulation. Again, neither are particularly common, so I don't see a big public outcry. UKC show breeders could be exempted from regulation, so there wouldn't really be a problem.
Maybe it's the Scargo Wags and Wiggles Rescue in Dennis Massachusetts?
You have to see this for complete lack of responsibility.
They only have a PO box, and they only let you meet the dogs OUTSIDE at some anonymous unknown location to basically sell the dog to you.
This is dog dealing. This isn't rescue.
This is transferring dogs in a parking lot from someone who won't even give their address or maybe even their real name.
This does nothing but harm for these dogs.
But they clearly sucker "foster homes" to harbor these dogs before they sell them to who knows who.
Maybe it's the Scargo Wags and Wiggles Rescue in Dennis Massachusetts?
You have to see this for complete lack of responsibility.
They only have a PO box, and they only let you meet the dogs OUTSIDE at some anonymous unknown location to basically sell the dog to you.
This is dog dealing. This isn't rescue.
This is transferring dogs in a parking lot from someone who won't even give their address or maybe even their real name.
This does nothing but harm for these dogs.
But they clearly sucker "foster homes" to harbor these dogs before they sell them to who knows who.
Sure enough, Wags n Wiggles Rescue in Dennis Ma has been in trouble with the law, collecting money illegally while not registering as a charity and STILL under suspicion
More pit dealing
http://www.
capecodpets.
com/news289.htm
These are the kinds of people handing out aggressive dogs that then turn around and kill your pets and even kids. "Pit nutter" here does foster care for these kinds of rescues.
" And again, you could exempt UKC show dogs."
That's a problem, because dog fighters show up at UKC events and no one gives them the boot.
UKC breeders are nowhere near responsible, and the owner of UKC is clearly allowing his organization to be used by dog fighters, while giving wan denials to the public.
They are part of the problem, at least until there is new ownership and that sideshow gets cleaned up.
Let me correct that.
UKC allows CONVICTED dog fighters at their events, and no one gives them the boot.
UKC is a rotten apple from top to bottom.
Diog into these pit bull rescues and it always gets worse.
This Scargo Wags n Wiggles Rescue was selling dogs over Craigslist and falsely posing as a charity, no paperwork filed.
The owner is Sylvia Mitka Logan, a transplant from Brooklyn Ny to Dennis Ma, and it didn't take too long to find her recommending Colby's pit bull book as a great book online. Yes, Colby the dog fighter and breeder.
So where are these pit bulls coming from that she is selling? Brooklyn to Mass? Is she breeding pit bulls?
Look at the mess around this operation, and you can see where dogs are coming from that are attacking. Some insight into how these questionable "rescue" operations are being run right out of people's homes, trying to hide under the radar. It makes you wonder how much money is changing hands here.
How is an RN affording a nearly million dollar home to sell pit bulls out of, selling them through craigslist and not a legitimate licensed business.
Sylvia Mifka Logan was pulling fighting breeds from Brooklyn NY Animal Control with her friends as of early last year.
http://www.
capecodtoday.com
/news/headlines/
2012/01/03/
mid-cape-dog-
rescue-under-
investigation-
2236
So now she's in Dennis Massachusetts and claims she is getting her pit bulls from a "high kill shelter."
There aren't any in Massachusetts.
So is this the Brooklyn to Massachusetts pit transport?
The animal control officer in Dennis Ma., Lori Miranda, got complaints and went to Animal Rescue League, home of dual pitnutters and vicious dog supporters Amy Marder and Martha Smith (who themselves sell dogs they know to be violent to other animals) and they seemed to reassure her that this pit sale business was ok. So this Miranda put her seal of approval on it.
So it looks like Lori Miranda isn't requiring this business to follow state law, so if anyone gets attacked by or gets a disease from a dog that came from Scargo Wags n Wiggles rescue of Dennis Massachusetts, have your lawyer have a chat with the city of Dennis, that apparently is letting their animal control officer collude with this.
People really need to find out what pit dealer operations are at work in their area.
Yes BB, that quote is direct from tne ASPCA website. Go to the section on dog fighting. You might also google "The care of pit bulls in the shelter environment." This is a powerpoint done in an effort to protect shelter workers from violent pit bull attacks. It was written by a veterinarian who likes pit bulls a great deal. Some of her suggestions are eye opening. It is a shame that the ASPCA has so little concern for the public that they do not make these statements openly.
"We glaze over the possibility that other dogs can be bred to be like pits"
I don't know where you could possibly get this idea. It simply isn't true, and to continue to believe it is delusional.
It's taken hundreds of years to selectively produce the breeds known as pit bulls and to breed for that aggression, prey drive, and PHYSICAL BUILD and ABILITY to do that kind of damage.
You could maybe breed some naughty labs, but they physically could not do things like rip out your flesh or rip your limbs off or throat out. And they would stop their aggression with much less counter force.
Do you understand that it is the PHYSICAL BUILD of pit bulls- from the formation of mouth and jaws, head, to particular muscular development, etc, that in addition to the aggression and prey drive makes them what they are?
To produce labs that do this, you would have to in essence breed pit bulls with some miniscule amount of lab in them. In other words, the pit mixes that are also maiming and killing.
You can't turn other breeds into fighting breeds.
And BB, quite bluntly, I think you are being dishonest here.
The things you write have no biological/genetic basis and make no sense, and I believe you are pandering to the breeder crowd and their idiocy while pretending to be sympathetic.
UPDATE:
The Pit-Perp is a Chicago Cop and has been suspended!
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11971485-418/owner-of-pit-bull-cops-were-looking-for-was-one-of-their-own.html
This is so much part of the problem. The quality in law enforcement and related fields like animal control has gone down, and there are cops and animal control people who are pit breeders and even dog fighters.
Where does that leave the public? In one hell of a dangerous situation.
Did everyone see that this nutter was a COP!?
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/11971485-418/owner-of-pit-bull-cops-were-looking-for-was-one-of-their-own.html
Candor, I really don't appreciate this:
"And BB, quite bluntly, I think you are being dishonest here.
The things you write have no biological/genetic basis and make no sense, and I believe you are pandering to the breeder crowd and their idiocy while pretending to be sympathetic. "
Say what you will, I have been active in trying to establish legislation specific to pit bulls in my area for a very long time. However, in the last 4 or 5 years I have realized that that legislation needs to be applied to type rather than breed. Grippers rather than pits. I have my own blog, Calgary Pit Attacks, which you can have a look at if you think I am secretly sympathetic to pit bulls.
Pit bulls are only the primary problem because pit bulls are the most numerous member of the gripping-type dog available. There is no question that ANY other gripping breed (Presa, Cane Corsos, AmBulls, etc, etc, etc) can easily be manipulated into EXACTLY what the pit is today. The genetics are nearly identical already. It is, in my humble opinion, asinine and dangerous to ignore this.
Now, as for Labradors being bred for aggression, maybe it is a stretch but have you ever researched what the infusion of pit blood into the Malinois has accomplished in a very short span?
To my mind, this potential suggests a need for more regulation, not less. I certainly am not pandering to breeders as I absolutely support spay/neuter laws for pit bulls. I just think that focusing on pits to the exlusion of the other grippers is archaic. It is not the breed of dog that is relevant, it is the type. This means we need more legislation and legislation focused on controlling or eliminating the breeding of all gripping type dogs - I cannot see any reason to continue to breed dogs for activities which are now illegal. I would take it further, though, and suggest that down the road we also need ongoing monitoring of breed-specific attacks of Level 4/5/6 and legislation that is flexible enought to deal with any emergence of aggressive traits within formerly less aggressive breeds.
But heck, I can totally see how you would confuse that with suggesting that we don't bother to regulate pits or pit breeding at all. I am not going to continue this discussion here because it is pointless, in fact some number of posts ago I said that I would leave it alone so your comment was really wholly unnecessary in the first place.
http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-cop-arrested-charged-1383469.html?cxtype=rss_news
great find rag doll.
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