Wednesday, February 4, 2015

Pit Bull Experts: scientifically unimpressive and technologically worthless

In 1960, Louis Leaky sent a secretary with no college education into the Africa bush to study chimpanzees. Despite the objections of "experts" Leaky persevered. Leaky felt that someone with little formal training would be more likely to describe what they were seeing rather than what they thought they should be seeing. 

I think everyone will agree that hiring Jane Goodall for the job was a brilliant move. 

Keep Jane Goodall in mind while you watch this video, The Trouble With Experts, then continue reading.

Pit bull advocates make a lot of noise about their "experts" and tout the perceived consensus among "experts" as proof that "pit bulls" are not the problem, owners are. Here are four of the more impressively credentialed "experts".


The ASPCA cited BORCHELT in their anti-BSL position statement and BORCHELT was called upon to provide his "expert" opinion in favor of pit bulls when a NYC council member sought to ban them:

A Brooklyn-based animal behaviorist who opposes a citywide pit bull ban, Peter Borchelt, said strong dogs such as pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds are generally safe, if they are "raised like pets." You get into trouble when the dog is not trained to be nonaggressive," Mr. Borchelt, who has a doctorate in animal behavior, said. "They can become dangerous when they're thrown behind a fence and allowed to become overly protective. You just have to take a few extra steps to make sure the dog is friendly, affectionate, and well socialized."
PETER L. BORCHELT, PhD and "expert" for hire.

BORCHELT provided the above "expert" opinion about the safety of pit bulls AFTER he was sued for a million dollars for providing his "expert" opinion to a retired fire fighter about the safety of a pit bull that he was in possession of. The pit bull attacked the retired fire fighter. Despite the fact that the pit bull had a known documented history of previous aggression, BORCHELT assured the retired fire fighter the pit bull was safe. During the civil trial, BORCHELT testified under oath that the pit bull was not vicious. Yeah. Just in case you missed the colored text above indicating an external link, click here.

PETER BORCHELT is a member of an elite club known as Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists. According to the civil lawsuit article, he charges $300 an hour to fix your dog's problems. You can find his fee schedule here. BORCHELT'S gun for hire, er uh I mean "expert" witness page is conveniently malfunctioning.


If I were asked to recommend a dog, say for a children's psychiatric ward, my first choice would be a pit bull. When children pull their tail, if they have one, or poke them, the dog's like... he doesn't care. With a good owner, you have the most fantastic breed of all.  

Poor Ian. Yet another dupe of proof of assertion. Apparently he has yet to receive the memo regarding the official revocation of nanny dog status

Hot shot Dunbar does not appear to offer services for problematic or dangerous behaviors. Smart move.


No other breed has been maligned or vilified as much as the pit bull terrier. One commonly finds negative publicity about this breed, despite the fact that many honorable Americans have kept pit bulls as pets, including Franklin Roosevelt and Thomas Edison. 
RICHARD POLSKY, PhD and "expert" for hire.

Poor Richard. All of that money and all those years spent studying to acquire impressive degrees was no guarantee that he would be able to demonstrate critical thinking skills. He still fell prey to the common fallacy known as Proof of Assertion. It is a documented fact that President Roosevelt's "pit bull" was a dangerous menace. It is a documented fact that Edison did not own Nipper and there is no documented proof that Thomas Edison ever owned any pit bull. 

The pit bulldog's long legacy of vilification is well earned and well documented.

POLSKY'S fee schedule is available on demand. I suspect it is one of those cases where if you have to ask, you probably can't afford it.


DR JAMES HA, animal behaviorist at the University of Washington in Seattle and "expert" for hire.
The reason we're focusing just on pit bulls is that we hear so much about them, and that is not because of the breed difference, the genetic difference - that's because of the way they've been raised.

That quote is from a 2010 KOMO news interview. Compare that to HA'S blog post in 2008, where HA cited research that stated red and golden cocker spaniels were more likely to display aggressive behavior than black cocker spaniels and that yellow labs were "significantly more likely to be reported with aggression problems" than the black or chocolate variants, yet JAMES HA promotes the crazy notion that dogs artificially selected for violence only require a loving gentle family.

Also in the 2010 KOMO interview, DR HA stated that mastiffs, chows, shepherds, rottweillers and dobermans are "all more genetically aggressive than" dogs that had been artificially selected for combat for 200 years. HA goes on to add that genetics is roughly 20-30% responsible for temperament. YET, at the roughly 4:00 minute mark of his presentation on "Behavioral Genetics" DR HA stated that in studies of selected dog breeds, none were gripping breeds btw, for defence behaviors ie, guarding, attacking, biting there is a 14 - 20% heritability rate "which in genetics world is important". He immediately followed up with "there are different genetic predispositions in different breeds." Towards the end of this 2011 youtube video, HA states that 30-50% of behavior is genetics. My head was spinning just trying to keep up with all his facts.

DR JAMES HA is a member of an elite club known as Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists.
HA offers a variety of services ranging from $75 - 250 plus travel fees.

One unspoken assumption among early behavior geneticists, an assumption that was shared by most for many years, was that some psychological traits were likely to be significantly influenced by genetic factors, whereas others were likely to be primarily influenced by shared environmental influences. Most behavior geneticists assumed that social attitudes, for example, were influenced entirely by shared environmental influences, and so social attitudes remained largely unstudied until relatively recently. The evidence now shows how wrong these assumptions were. Nearly every reliably measured psychological phenotype (normal and abnormal) is significantly influenced by genetic factors. Heritabilities also differ far less from trait to trait than anyone initially imagined. Shared environmental influences are often, but not always, of less importance than genetic factors, and often decrease to near zero after adolescence. Genetic influence on psychological traits is ubiquitous, and psychological researchers must incorporate this fact into their research programs else their theories will be ‘‘scientifically unimpressive and technologically worthless,’’ to quote Meehl again.
Genetic Influence on Human Psychological Traits

Genetics, Not Parenting, Key to Temperament, Studies Say, Los Angeles Times, February 20, 1994

Major Personality Study Finds That Traits Are Mostly Inherited, New York Times, December 2, 1986

PETER BORCHELT, IAN DUNBAR, RICHARD POLSKY and JAMES HA believe that purpose bred dogs, artificially selected for violent combat for 200 years are not genetically predisposed to violence. BORCHELT, DUNBAR, POLSKY and HA believe it is equally wrong to think that nature plays second fiddle to nurture in dogs. Unfortunately, they have been able to convince others of their distorted beliefs too.

So much for "experts".

Dr James Ha

Jane Goodall

The Nanny Dog Myth Revealed

Thomas Edison's pit bull

Famous Pit Bull Owners: The Thomas Alva Edison Edition

Famous Pit Bull Owners: The Presidential Edition

Pete Roosevelt: The Disgraced White House Bandog

Myth 99: Scientists know what they are talking about because they study animals in an objective way, Alexandra Semyonova

The science of how behavior is inherited in aggressive dogs by Alexandra Semyonova

Alexandra Semyonova's book, The 100 Silliest Things People Say About Dogs is available in the right side bar of this blog.


The Trouble with Experts

Only An Expert



RSM said...

A bunch of evil patriarchs. Look at the lot of them, smug, smiling, pseudo-intellectuals.

It doesn't take an advanced degree to open your eyes and see whats going on. My guess is that they know, but are willing to say whatever to get paid.

That quote about a pit pin a kids psych facility? LUNACY. That guy ought to be in such a facility.

David Edelstein / Team Pit-a-Full Dog Training & Rehabilitation/ Denver, CO said...

Still trying your same old smoke and mirrors BS I see.

Face it, them thar days of Senator McCarthyism and Pit Bull bans are over and/ or coming to an end.


scorched earth said...

Why David, when actual residents of a community, local voters, are asked for their opinion via the ballot box, pit bull advocacy is the loser. Think Miami-Dade and Aurora Colorado.

Interesting that you are located in a breed ban community as is Brent Toellner. Funny how that works out.

Anonymous said...

David Edelstein,

You face it, pit bull bans are becoming more and more common. People are sick of the killing inflicted by pit bulls. Why do you have to rehabilitate pit bulls? Because they're shit animals to begin with. No sane person wants them as pets. No one wants them in their neighborhoods. Most of us here realized a long time ago, that pit bulls are dangerous, worthless, and not a pet. They were used for bull baiting, and then dog fighting. That's it. Owning a pit bull is playing Russian Roulette. Only insane people play that game.

It's a new year, and now we'll start a new list with new victims of the despicable breed you fancy. Yay. Please review the long list of people killed in 2014 by pit bulls. If you don't gain insight from that information, you're hopeless.


Unknown said...

David sounds like a child.

Anonymous said...

The sad thing is that, unlike wine tasting, there is a genuine body of scientific evidence that can be known and understood and shared by genuine scientists who don't won't gain money by shitting on their professed field of study.
You can't make a lot of money telling people they should put their dog down because of poor breeding.

Once they decide there's more money to be had by lying and telling people they can fix genetically controlled temperaments and behaviors with training, and they use their credentials to gild their turds they become science whores.

Meals on Wheels said...

Great work, as always. You managed to get the chef from Denver to out. When you outplay them at their "well, who are YOU to talk, you are not a certified animal behaviorist"...then all they have to say is that they are winning and that BSL is on the way out. What will the chef do if that were really true? Victims and people who care about public safety has as much right to participate in this argument, so many of them are quiet people who just go to the voting booth and vote "YES" on the pit bull ban. It's two for two right now. Just give everyone the right to vote. That makes folks like the Chef from Denver really scared. I wonder why these folks can't give a nice Lab or a German Shepherd a try, but they are clearly dog racists.

Anonymous said...

Bulldogs have declared open war on precious Yorkies, so I guess they are dog dog racists.

The Michele said...

A pit bull is a loaded automatic weapon with a hair trigger that the owner does not control. When police in Houma Louisiana have to fire 14 bullets into the "family pet" that mauled to death a 4 year old family member the advocacy position is indefensible.

Anonymous said...

Anon, I have to disagree with pit bulls being racist. They are equal opportunity maulers. They do not discriminate.

Pibble said...

Pit bull lobbyists can achieve expert consensus against BSL only when they take elaborate pains to exclude experts who aren't against BSL (or deliberately misinterpret their research).

This was a letter to the editor published in the Sept. 1 edition of JAVMA:

"In their report on potentially preventable factors in dog bite–related fatalities in the United States, Patronek et al1 argue that breed-specific legislation (BSL) is unlikely to be an effective dog-bite prevention strategy, citing our finding in a study2 of Canadian cities to state that “there was no significant reduction in hospitalization rates for dog bite injury in communities before and after BSL was introduced.” Further, in their response to a subsequent letter to the editor,3 the authors quote from our report to state that “[w]hen jurisdictions were used as their own controls in a pre-BSL versus post-BSL comparison of incidence of hospitalizations, no significant reduction in the period after BSL implementation was observed.”

Both of these statements are true; however, taken out of context, they obscure some of the complexities inherent in our collective understanding of the issues surrounding dog-bite injuries and the differences between dog-bite injuries and dog-bite fatalities. For instance, we also reported that the rate of dog-bite injury hospitalization in Winnipeg, MB, Canada (a city with BSL), relative to the rate in Brandon, MB, Canada (a city that has not adopted BSL), was significantly (P < 0.001) lower after the adoption of BSL in Winnipeg (rate ratio, 1.10 for people of all ages and 0.92 for people < 20 years old) than it was before (rate ratio, 1.29 and 1.28, respectively). Thus, we concluded that when temporal and geographic variations were accounted for, BSL was effective in reducing the hospitalization rate in Winnipeg, relative to the rate in Brandon, with a more pronounced effect in younger people than in people of all ages.

We agree with Patronek et al1 that BSL by itself is unlikely to be an effective solution to the problem of dog bites. However, we believe it can play an important role. We invite readers to read our original study2 and related letter to the editor4 to make their own conclusions about the unique strengths, contributions, and limitations of our study."

Malathi Raghavan, dvm, phd

Assistant Director, Education and Research AVMA

Schaumburg, Ill

Patricia J. Martens, phd, frsc, cm

Senior Research Scientist, Manitoba Center for Health Policy Distinguished Professor, Community Health Sciences

Charles Burchill, msc

Associate Director, Manitoba Center for Health Policy

Dan Chateau, phd

Research Scientist, Manitoba Center for Health Policy Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB, Canada

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

thank you for that comment anonymous.

you can find the paper referenced by Malanthi Raghavan HERE and canadian fatal dog attacks HERE.

you probably did not notice but the documentary video in this blog post is also canadian. more courage is found north of our border. we are stuck with gutless vain putrid celebrity experts down here. and that goes for journalists too. barbara kay has a new one out. i have not read it yet but i am sure the nutters are all foaming at the mouth. you can find it HERE.

and here is one of absolute all time faves from beautiful british columbia!

Anonymous said...

There's not always a Yorkie around though. So, they usually have to improvise. I have a theory that they pick the smallest thing they can set teeth on... sometimes a bull is the 'smallest thing' available when the mood strikes them. Very, very sadly though, the 'smallest thing' is all too frequently a little child.

Pit bull owners think their dogs are 'brave', and I will be fair and say a FEW probably are. But, most just have a vicious streak and they prefer not to get hurt when they exercise it so they choose 'the smallest thing'. If they really need to flex the DNA, they'll go dead game on 'the smallest thing' that even their simple minds realize can kill them even if it is a bull, a kangal, a mule, or a grown human with a gun.

Tom Youngjohn said...

I loved this article. G-d bless you. Or Hitchens bless you. Or Harris bless you. Or Lama bless you. Whatever floats your boat, just bless the shit out of you.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

well, isn't that sweet. i'll take hitchens :-)

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

bravery really only counts when one is afraid and steps up to meet the challenge. with self preservation bred out of them, pit bulls can't be brave. and with the nutters' propensity to freeze when their mutant detonates or dining and dashing afterwards, they are cowards.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

woops, pibble left that comment and i attributed it to anonymous. sorry.

justcuz said...

I generally think pits will go for a dog who will not defend itself. I have a 70lb dog that has been attacked 3 times by pits, and all he did was cry, lay down (showing submission) and try to get away. He even lays down for small dogs (with I am proud of). So I don't think its so Mich size that matters, its what will fight back. These so called experts are a disgrace. I know a dog behaviarlist who straight up said pits are easy to anger and not worth the risk (as far as letting your dog around one).

Anonymous said...

We need a new expert for the SANE side of this argument that focuses on obvious indictators of aggression: lost arms, missing ears, mutilated faces. It is outrageous that people will look up statistics on cars safety ratings, and consult these safety ratings when considering a car purchase. Then if they are given the facts about the statistics about dangerous dogs that repeatedly kill, mutilate and maime year after year at much higher rates, they will listen to PAID experts and totally disregard the facts because everyone else is getting a pitbull.. or my friend has a nice one that.. (that hasn't mauled anyone yet)

Anonymous said...

Oh, your poor dog. Of course, acting like that would get most breeds to just leave him alone.

Packhorse said...

"Pit Nutter Church"
by Dozer

Pit nutters got humor
They could giggle at a funeral
Mocks everybody's disapproval
I should've worshipped ‘em sooner

If the devils ever did speak
They’re the last true mouthpiece
Every news day's getting more bleak
A fresh mauling each week

We were born sick,
You heard them say it.

My Church offers free board and groom
She tells me, 'Just lie in the vet’s room.'
The doggie heaven that they’re sent to
After they’re alone with you—

I was born sick,
But I love it.
Command the myths dispelled.
Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

[Chorus 2x:]
Pit nutter church
I'll worship gripping dogs at the shrine of your lies
I'll give you my shins and you can harden your bite
Offer me that blameless death
Good Dog! Let me give you my life

My dog is beggin’ for the good times
I deserved that dog bite
To keep the doggies on my side
She demands a sacrifice

Game on, Lassie
Get something bloody
Something meaty for the main course
That's a fine looking pet horse
What you got in the stable?
We've a lot of starving faithful

That looks tasty
That looks plenty
This is hungry work

[Chorus 2x:]
Pit nutter church
I'll worship gripping dogs at the shrine of your lies
I'll give you my shins so you can harden your bite
Offer me that blameless death
Good Dog! Let me give you my life

No masters or chains
When the Ritual begins
There is no sweeter innocence than our gentle pits

In the madness and soil of that sad bloody scene
Only our dogs are human
Only their dogs are mean.
Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

[Chorus 2x:]
Pit nutter church
I'll worship gripping dogs at the shrine of your lies
I'll give you my shins and you can harden your bite
Offer me that blameless death
Good Dog! Let me give you my life

Anonymous said...

David Edelstein, I find it interesting that you are doing nothing more than aiding and abetting pit bull breeders and dog fighters to not only get people and pets hurt, but to make things worse for pit bulls too.

Somehow I have a feeling that your involvement in this has more to do with mother figures like Jane Saul cracking the whip and putting boys like you to work.

It is also interesting that you trot out the tired McCarthy reference that such weak boys do so often, especially since you are also aiding and abetting the KKK in their pit bull industry endeavors.

Things are worse than ever for pit bulls themselves, because the money grubbers and liars came out to play and spin their cons.

Do you do it knowingly or unknowingly? Are you such a tool that you just do what you are told, or are you complicit in this money grubbing and exploitation of these breeds?

Anonymous said...

The worst thing about Gary Patronek's posing and fraudulent fake science is that he failed to disclose the for-profit interests he worked with to create his propaganda designed to protect, well, those exact same for-profit financial interests.

But all of these animal behavior degrees and certificates are worthless. There is no science of canine behavior.

Not one of these clowns agrees with each other. Most of them spend more time bickering and fighting with each other actually.

The animal behavior and dog trainer arena is built on a foundation of fraud, and is fraud of the worst kind that gets people and animals killed.

These people are dangerous and they need to be held accountable much more often, especially since they are profiting from fighting dog breeding now and the by- product of dog fighters and are essentially rationalizing breeding fighting breeds and supporting dog fighting and propping it up.

It's a good thing to be keeping track of all of them.

Anonymous said...

The colleges and universities, and continuing ed programs, are full of fraudulent degree and certificate programs these days. They make a lot of money from them and there is no quality control whatsoever.

Garbage in, garbage out.

These are fraudulent degrees and certificates.

But the people who collect them and tout them and give advice need to be held accountable for what they are doing. just like anyone else who poses as an expert. They are fully responsible for their advice and opinion and need to be held responsible fully.

Just like people can sue any other "expert" so shall these fakers be sued.

Anonymous said...

This is OT. I am involved in animal welfare charity work and I was shocked to see this post on FB received so many replies: I am constantly trying to rehome gentle, beautiful little animals, whose stories are way sadder than this pit/bull dog's in this post, reliably friendly animals that will never attack or hurt anyone, and they never receive such a response of support. What's up? these pit supporters will literally throw themselves in front of a train for these unreliable and dangerous dogs who kill people and other animals. These seem to me the kind of people that would marry Charles Manson.

Glad to see these "experts" exposed. It's all agenda for them. They have conquered the art of bad politics.

Packhorse said...

On Slate's front page is a video with the following description:

"But years of research dissected in a new book shows that coded within the playful biting and tackling, there may be signs of human-like empathy, compassion, fairness, and morality. The video above breaks down some of the most common gestures in dogs’ robust physical language."

What kind of dog do you think is used to illustrate this concept? That's right. Pit bulls: "human-like empathy, compassion, fairness, and morality."

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

disappointed in slate.

Animal Uncontrol said...

" Pit bulls: "human-like empathy, compassion, fairness, and morality."

Well, sure, if that human happens to be Hannibal Lecter!

Anonymous said...

Great investigative reporting....I think the word of "dog experts" has become completely meaningless, primarily because there is no industry regulation, no ethical standards, and no way to remove "experts" to get paid to give false information, or are grossly incompetent. Lawyers can be disbarred, doctors can lose their medical licenses, but "dog experts" can get people killed and still collect a paycheck.


Anonymous said...

So, to be clear. People with dog training expertise are not experts, but only 'for hire'.

Science is not believable because it is also for hire.

But the rantings of a group of anonymous bloggers are completely true and trustworthy?

Got it.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

nope. you don't get it nutter but that is not surprising. the message is like many "experts" these four are seriously flawed.

Anonymous said...

Well, as long as anonymous people on the internet say so it must be true. Color me convinced!

Anonymous said...

When you post as anonymous, you can't say this. Just FYI.

You want to believe pit bulls are the best possible new best friend for kids in a psych ward, knock yourself out (I'm citing Ian Dunbar, by the way, this is obviously not my own opinion). But, don't expect anyone else halfway sane to believe it is a great idea to take a DOG (ANY DOG!) in with the expectation that kids might pull the dog's tail and poke it in the eye and the dog (if it is a pit bull, citing Ian Dunbar) will just placidly sit there. Yeah, maybe a pit bull would do that, but is it sane to RECOMMEND that? To recommend that for ANY type of dog? Let alone a type of dog that, if and when it has enough of being abused can EASILY turn around and rip the offending child apart? This anonymous person would recommend a teddy bear (a.k.a. a TOY) over a dog for ANY child that cannot understand not to abuse a living creature.

Unknown said...

I know this is way off the topic of this post, but an Anderson Indiana couple has been arrested after filming the wife performing sex acts with the family pit bull. Here's the link: This seems to happen more often with pits than other breeds, another point for how sick their owners can be in the head.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

not too surprising. pit bulls are such "loyal people pleasers". and their high tolerance pain probably helps make them popular.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

anonanutter, i never lose any sleep over the fact that you guys deny every kernel of truth out there that doesn't jive with your pollyanna image of pibbles.

Anonymous said...

I don't any sleep knowing that I am listening to people with credentials and decades of experience with dogs like Dunbar and not following the advice of anonymous people on the internwebs.

At least we're both sleeping well.

Anonymous said...

No anon, "you don't any sleep" whatever that means.

Go ahead and try to discredit anonymous bloggers in the name of pit bulls. I wonder how you wrap your mind around a pit bull killing a man taking down a Christmas tree? Any of your so called experts, cannot override reality. That is, pit bulls kill, and will continue to kill, as long as there are idiots out there, like yourself, defending this worthless breed.

But please, go ahead and tell us, "But the rantings of a group of anonymous bloggers are completely true and trustworthy?"

If you can't handle the other side of the argument, maybe you should turn off your computer? Or go to one of your pro pit bull sites, where you can blather about nanny dogs or some shit? Or continue denying the truth.


Anonymous said...

These "experts" should not be cherry picking data and claiming that genetics and selective breeding influences dog behavior in every breed EXCEPT for pit bulls. That's nonsense. And there are numerous trainers and dog experts who absolutely believe that pit bulls present a higher level of risk than other dog breeds. They are generally not "celebrity" dog trainers, and don't rely on public PR to maintain their "brand". One New England trainer who is very well known in performance dog circles, has competed internationally and is highly respected, doesn't allow pit bulls in her training classes as they are "dangerous and unpredictable".

Dog experts like Ian Dunbar are like the many veterinarians who work for the puppy mill industry who sign off on health certificates for sick dogs. All the sick puppies sold in pet shops have been "vet checked". These veterinarians have degrees, they are technically "dog experts", are they not? But that doesn't make them honest. It's a money grab, that's all. Same with Dunbar and the rest.

Ignoring the devastating number of dead and mangled children and adults, and actively promoting dangerous dogs, proves that these "experts" are morally bankrupt.


Anonymous said...

Stand and deliver, then... explain how it is smart to take a PIT BULL into a place full of children who will abuse it because 'it won't care' (according to expert Ian Dunbar... and I have seen a video where these words come out of his mouth). There is NO ANIMAL I would recommend for this.

This is what you're defending to us 'anonymous people' (of which YOU are ONE, BTW). I don't begin to see how common fucking sense is just merrily thrown by the wayside since advising people to do that is INSANE.

Say there is a pit bull that quietly sits and lets kids pull its tail and poke out its eyes, is it fair to subject that dog to such things? Is it even vaguely realistic to expect ALL pit bulls to behave thusly? If so, then why do people who wuv pibbles always wonder what even little babies do to 'provoke' pit bulls when they're mauled to death (I am not talking about any specific case, there are many where this happens and I see that said).

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

anonanutter, i didn't say that i slept well. you incorrectly inferred that. you also appear to have incorrectly inferred that i am lying or twisting facts. ya know, that colored text indicates an external link. nine times out ten, my external links will be going to PRO pit bull sites. so tear yourself away from the victory bog blog and poor pibble chip-ins, dry your eyes, breath into a paper bag if you must, but you really should TRY, i emphasize TRY because you appear to be short changed in the intellectual department but TRY to follow JAMES HA's trail of facts and research. it's a hoot. a big ole contradictory hoot.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

"Nine times out of ten my links go to pro pit bull sites". You might want to count again. It seems your math is as fuzzy as your logic.

Anonymous said...

Well, I watched the documentary. Very interesting. Oh, I am not the Ian Dunbar-supporting anonymous. I am a totally different anonymous who thinks the psych ward advice is so stupid as to negate all other words Ian Dunbar says. The other anonymous needs to watch the documentary and see what it says about pit bulls.

Anonymous said...

People who say stupid bullshit while posing as experts have blood on their hands when morons or the genuinely naive actually believe them. Of course, I am starting to believe many nutters do not really believe this stuff. They just want US to believe it so we'll STFU. And possibly get mauled to death if we follow their advice and go volunteer at a shelter full of precious Galunkers.

Anonymous said...

Slate is one of the most hideous collections of emasculated boy children on the face on the earth.

Another group of man boys who jump when a Jane Saul cracks the whip. They are used to taking orders and following direction.

How very nice that they are offering a support system for the KKK and good ole boy dog fighting network. All it took was a little rotten cheese like "racism" and "Mccarthyism" and the man boys jump in the trap and lose their minds.

PS I know a couple of them. They are nasty little rats.

Anonymous said...

"people with dog training expertise are not experts, but only 'for hire'."

There is no such thing as "dog training expertise"

There are people with lots of opinions on dog training and who pose as "experts" but there is is no science of dog training.

Which is why the dog training world is filled with poseurs and frauds, and most of all those on the payroll of special interest groups.

It is interesting that the dog trainer and behaviorist poseurs fight amongst each other and attack each other almost as often as pit bulls do though.

Dunbar's "credentials" are worthless and years of lying and posing mean little.

The worst kinds of frauds and shysters have credentials up the wazoo and years of experience doing the same.

Anonymous said...

"Frauds and Shysters" - -you mean like Cory Nelson and Merritt Clifton?

Anonymous said...

Me thinks craven touched a nutter nerve by daring to criticize their false gods.

Anonymous said...

You don't seem to understand math, logic, or what 'fuzzy logic' means. BEHOLD:

^^this explains it.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...


Anonymous said...

I was never an Ian Dunbar fan, but this is truly the final straw. Recommending those creatures for child companions?
You've got to be kidding me.

Goldens, Poodles, Toy/companion breeds, ANYTHING IS A BETTER OPTION!

Anonymous said...

He is not recommending it for just any child's companion (since all pit bull advocates other than dog fighters do that). He is recommending that pit bull be taken to a children's psychiatric facility where SEVERAL children will, most likely according to him, pull its tail and poke it in the eye.

But, it is reckless for him to recommend any dog for this duty let alone a pit bull. Maybe one kid at a time, heavily supervised, with an especially tolerant Golden Retriever... IDK...

I remember a little girl not too long ago that was bitten in the face by a pit bull. The dog's owner claimed the girl 'pulled the dog's ears'. Now, probably this is a lie, but we hear it a lot... young children accused of hurting, scaring, or just 'provoking' pit bulls. The accusations are made by pit bull owners, so THEY don't seem to think pit bulls are as tolerant of such treatment as Ian Dunbar thinks. But, yet they defend his insane advice.

Of course, half the same people will 'prove' their dogs are safe by having their kid climb all over it for YouTube videos. Ian Dunbar, if he was worth a damn, would tell them to cut that out pronto... dogs can lose their patience like any creature. And this is a very, very bad thing when it's a pit bull.

RSM said...

Anon- you do not have to be an expert to tally up the deaths, and dismemberments, severe maimings, life flights and people put in critical condition. Even the illiterate can fully grasp the numbers, and see how a dog that powerful can and does, cause so much harm.

**My 4 year old son even gets it- a type of dog attacks and kills more than all others combined is one you avoid. He is in preschool, and has more sense than both you and these experts. He can't even count to 100 but understands that 28 deaths and kids with faces ripped off is scary and horrible. One more time- a preschooler knows better. And all he had to be told was how many died. What's your excuse!?**

Please, please, please, tell me why it's so hard to grasp the deadliness inherent with the pit bull. Also let me know where these amateur bloggers are wrong. You know it all, lay down some proof. Show me that pit advocay isn't harmful to the public and pits, while benefitting dog fighting scum, a d criminally negligent pit owners?
But you can't.
So I'm sure you wont be back.


Pits hate Xmas!
Two owners were mauled in Xmas related attacks. One on Xmas day, the other while taking down his tree earlier this week.

But the real story NEEDS the Craven treatment. There is some proof that the dog that fatally attacked the 87yr old taking down his tree, was adopted from a local shelter. AND- The pit had been on TV (!!!) to show how great he was and to guilt someone into adopting him! The clip where they pimpthe pit, the lady from the shelter lies and makes claims about how pits are oh so wonderful, make great pets, and there's no breed issue! she even named all the types of pits- am staff, am pit etc, to say how they are all just awesome!
This Tv appearance worked- it played April 30 and they adopted the mauler in early May.

Pits from shelters kill frequently, but one highlighted on TV as especially great, and where the shelter advocate said such egregious lies on air, really illustrates the problem perfectly.

All links to videos and other info can be found in the comments on the latest Dogsbite blog post. Save them before the nutters delete the proof of their own negligence.

I hope they get sued and that pit pusher gets her face taken off by a pit.


And only a sicko, sociopath, would come here, and say "you lose" after a year with such a high number of fatal, and permanently disfiguring, pit attacks. This is so delusional I just don't get it. Did you not see the numbers? Did you not see the breed pics and ID? Have you missed the pics of kids torn up and people lacking limbs? Are you totally ignorant or just a hateful lowlife?

I mean seriously- boasting about putting the public in danger because you're so proud to have politiked your way into pushing deadly laws without public knowledge or imput? Are you fixing kidding me? Don't you see how sick it is to brag, when kids are getting their faces taken off and lives lost everyday? Is this winning in your book!? If so I cannot fathom what losing would look like- or is losing restricting these dogs and saving lives, to someone like you?

I sincerely hope you lose your face to a pit bull, or at least a limb or two, so you can finally understand what it's like to be the victim of your beloved monster. you are so sick you would probably say the pit was a lab or something, and keep on pushing them on children.

What a disgusting waste of life mr Edelstein is. Sick sick sick sick and totally sociopathic.

Anonymous said...

Oh... no... That particular mauling is about more than I can take.


Unknown said...

I'm not going to lie, I follow the Vicktory dogs on facebook. What came across my newsfeed this morning was a fairly intelligent post about a video going around. It came from one of the adopters and she was 100% right. There's a video going round of a small child feeing six pit bulls at once. Supposedly to show how safe they are around children. The adopter rightly pointed out the dangers of a child feeding that many dogs of any breed at once. It's stupid and dangerous, no matter what the breed. I know non pit bull dogs who guard their food, not against people but against other dogs. She's right that if something happens it will be another strike against the breed, and honestly an unfair one. I think any parent allowing a small child to feed six dogs of any kind at once, and recording it, then posting it on the internet needs to be investigated. I know pits are more deadly, but that child's parents are stupid more for letting the kid feed six dogs at once than for having six pits. It's not the dogs who are to blame for what they've been bred for, it's mankind who's at fault, no matter what. As for most kids who are attacked by the family dog, I feel sorry for the children, but if you don't have enough common sense to research a pet before you get it, I have a much harder time feeling sorry for the adult owners.

Anonymous said...

But , these are the experts that all agree that BSL doesnt work and breed is unimportant in aggression problems in dogs . methinks if they all agree with this its probably because they all have some personal reason to think like this . ie: they like what they do and want to keep doing it , no matter who or what else suffers because of anti-BSL advocacy .

Anonymous said...

Trisha, are you aware that quite a few of the "Vicktory" pit bulls have been killed by negligence, including by Best Friends? These incidents have been kept hushed up to protect fundraising interests, including one which ended up with dog fighting breeders, was bred, and then abused to death.

Also that Best Friends refused to spend some of the money they have made from illegal fundraising off these dogs, and didn't build adequate containment, and a couple of the "Vicktory" pit bulls that are insanely aggressive, not rehabiliated at all despite the lies to donors, broke out to kill a Best Friends sanctuary dog?

Also despite the fact that the court ordered Best Friends not to use these dogs for fundraising, they have, and all the sales from merchandise that Best Friends sells (like the Tshirts, mugs, Vicktory wine, etc) goes into a private company that is profits for some of the founders. Right into their private pockets,, despite leading donors to believe it helps dogs.

Best Friends and their pit bull breeder friends run one of the biggest scams around, and that's only the beginning of the scams.

Anonymous said...

"This week, in my local newspaper, they featured a photo of an unsavory person walking two pit bull"

Contact the publisher and let them know how irresponsible their editorial staff is being, working for the interests of criminals

Anonymous said...

It looks like David Epstein's panties are still in a twist. He just keeps coming back

It shows you how much control Jane Saul has over her little boys

It's not about the dogs at all really. It is about the dominance role they've played for life.

Anonymous said...

Oh wrong one

I meant David Edelstein, the eternally submissive

He sounds a lot like Steve Markwell, mom supported

Anonymous said...

"This is so delusional I just don't get it"

Very easy to explain, these male types like Markwell

Submissive and obedient to women like Jane Saul, and desperate for ego inflating attention, thus easy to control

and very interested in getting in on the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ action

Unknown said...

Anon 11:51, I am aware a few of them were killed due to negligence. I also know about the two who broke out and killed the other dog at Best Friends. There seem to be a few adopted by people who actually felt bad and care for them. At any rate the adopter of the dog who brought up the video makes a very valid point. Letting a 4 year old feed six male pit bulls is foolish and dangerous. If any food aggression breaks out, that cute little four year old will be a victim. Then, yes it would be the breed who got the blame. It should be the parent who gets the blame for being so stupid.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Vicktory dogs. They didn't ask for any of it, from the treatment on Vick's property, which is wrong, it would be better to eliminate the breed altogether than allow any animal to be mistreated like pit bulls are. (I'm not a nutter, just can't stand to see any animal abused) To, the time spent in shelters while the courts decided what to do, to spending life on a compound (BF), or being adopted and sometimes paraded around as spokespeople for the pit bull P.R. campaign. The older they get the less likely they are to find a home, and how is life any better for any dog in a shelter waiting to die for years, than at the end of a chain until they fight? I guess the shelter ones have a few more creature comforts.

Which one was adopted out to fighting breeders? There do appear to be a few who have been successful in integrating into society, and I wish those dogs and their adopters well, because as I said they've been through enough in their lives.

Anonymous said...

A very eloquent statement, Trisha. It helped me put some of my rather ambivalent emotions in order. I hope we hear more from you.

Anonymous said...

Excellent, Packhorse! I love your stuff!

Anonymous said...

Dawn, I've attempted to leave comments, but the new capcha design simply defeats me. Is it possible to go back to the previous one? These are indecipherable. I'm a child of the sixties but still don't want any more 'shroom flashbacks! Now I hope I can get past the capcha!

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

anon 2:15, sorry to report that i have no control over that. i noticed google made some global changes about a month ago and that also required that i put in a capcha. i can turn them off but then i could get flooded with spam or i can turn off the ability to leave anonymous comments and turn off the capcha.

let me know what you think people.

Anonymous said...

I like commenting anonymous... crazy recaptcha and all.

Anonymous said...

Although I don't think the recaptcha is any more difficult. People who have trouble, you can ask for another one. There are some that are just too hard to read. If you get lucky, you'll get one of the photo ones next and those are simple. You can also ask for an audio clue.

Anonymous said...

I tried to comment on the next page, but the captcha won over on me again, no matter how scrupulously I tried to to imitate the lunatic letters. Every time I tried it seemed to get crazier, culminating in a smeary blur only partly on the page.Is there a malevolent overlord at play here? I've been told I talk too much... this might be an omen!

Anonymous said...

Isn't it just anonymous posters who have to contend with it? If you really can't do it, post with your Google account. I want to post anonymously... so, whatever craziness I have to type to do that, I will.

You can get an audio clue rather than a visual clue, if that helps.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, but there's no indicator on my IPhone that offers an audio clue. Just complaining because my insomnia is making me cranky. I just need more patience, and unravelling a capcha is good mental exercise. Again, thanks for the help!

Anonymous said...

Oh, I have a different kind of phone than you...

Anonymous said...

"There do appear to be a few who have been successful in integrating into society,"

Appear is a good word. You'll never find out the truth, because Best Friends avoids the truth on practically every subject connected to them.

Best Friends is collecting sponsor money, for example, on dogs they they gave to negligent foster homes that got them killed. In the sponsorship shills Best Friends pretends these dogs are still alive and asks people to donate monthly for their care.

When they took Hurricane Katrina rescue money from donors, they didn't tell people they dumped pit bulls with a sadist named Don Chambers and gave him donor money. They told donors they were keeping the pit bulls, then the pit bulls were being rehabilitated and then found wonderful homes. But Don tortured and killed the dogs, and Best Friends had to admit it when the media picked up the story.

Steve Markwell, you probably know about. Best Friends had been dumping pit bulls with him to torture for years, then when it got out, they lied and claimed they didn't know the guy.

There's too much to mention here.

They've done nothing but bad things for pit bulls and make life hell for more and more pit bulls.

In their quest to promote the pit bull, all they've done is increase demand and breeding, and increase dog fighting and make it easier to run by opposing BSL, more dogs like the Vick dogs suffering but no one will hear about it because they don't come with big pots of money.

Increasing the numbers of Vick type situations, while they claimed they came to the rescue.

Best Friends is the biggest animal welfare fraud in the country, and they have a lot of competition but they win the prize for worst.

Worst friend on earth for pit bulls.

Anonymous said...

Great comment Anon 3:38.

I understand people feeling sorry for any animal owned by Vick, but the cottage industry around his pit bulls is just weird. Plenty of pits get taken off dog fighters every year. Many dog fighters are better caretakers of their animals than Vick (that doesn't take much), but the real difference is they are not celebrities.

To me, this is giving more attention to an individual who deserves to be ignored. Also, his beagles... we don't hear much about them and beagles are much better dogs anyway.

Unknown said...

I'm an animal lover and have no problems with cold pit bulls or any other dog that doesn't attack. I'll agree Best Friends is bad for animals. I had more of a problem with how Vick treated the dogs than the actual fighting of them, but I still think it's disgusting. I detest bloodsport and animal cruelty. The dogs who were integrated haven't helped the breed. You can't say, "oh they've done fine, despite their past", and not expect people to want that type of dog. After all, they look like a Cinderella story and that will appeal to innocent, normal people. Most of them won't bother to research and will wonder why their dog starts killing smaller animals, or people. Then it's another strike against the dogs and round and round it goes. Add to that, the families who aren't warned their dogs came from a fight bust, and it's another big mess. This country has a people problem first, a pit bull problem second.

You never hear about the beagles or the other dogs taken from the property. That's good in a way, at least no matter how badly they were treated they don't seem to have went psychotic and killed things. Wasn't there a cain corso amd two rotts as well? Not hearing about them either, and again, I'll consider it a good thing.
I was in a petsmart, I have pet rats and one needed to see the vet. They're a place I prefer to avoid but they happen to be affordable for exotic animal care. Anyway, being petsmart the place was full of dogs. One will make the news one day, it wanted to attack every other dog in the store. It even tried to get to my rat. I would've killed it. The woman walking it was a just out of college age and could barely keep it under control. The other dogs, even the retrievers in there were fine. Even the one other pit was attentive to it's owner and acted like a normal dog when meeting people. The, at least for now, cold pit ignored the one wanting to get in it's face and fight. I asked both owners where their dogs came from. The cold one was adopted, the crazy one came from a backyard breeder on craigslist. I wish the couple who adopted well, I even petted the dog, may it stay the way it is and make them a good pet. As for the other one, I hope she has the sense to realize her "big, just trying to play with everything baby" is a danger to society before it eats children, small animals, or her.
It's not all in how they're raised, if so, the above two pits would probably be reversed. It's not anything but rather or not the genes kick in and the dog goes off. I'd advocate breeding whatever it is that makes them so dangerous out of them. Then they would be great pets, but the changes would kill of the breed, so that's probably the only real alternative. It really does make me sad that animals are tortured and abused in the name of charity or sport. The breed is a mistake and one we're paying a heavy price for. Innocent animals pay a heavy price as well, including the mutated dogs themselves.

Anonymous said...

What I meant is the people promoting specifically pit bulls are the ones who keep the focus on Michael Vick's pits. I am not really caring about seeing things about his dogs of other breeds. That the beagles found home is good enough. But, I don't really follow this kind of thing.

It is a good point that positive press might make people want a pit. I am to the point where I think showing anything on TV in any context is certain to make someone out there want it. Or it surely seems that way sometimes.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

i bumped this to the top so no one has to delay gratification with comment moderation. plus i think these men deserve preferential treatment. :-)

Anonymous said...

Speaking of fake experts, the Cesar Milan/Gus the pit bull situation is heating up again because a second person got mauled by Gus after Milan declared him rehabilitated

The morons following the Lexus Project scammers got screwed out of thousands (think of how many pit bulls that would have spayed, or they could have gone after some dog fighters) and Gus is now euthanized thanks to Cesar Milan

They stole your money, lied to you, then flushed the dog, dopes

Has anyone written a blog on the Gus saga? I am getting some bits and pieces

Lexus, someone named Jenny who appears to be a frail crone in leggings who could no more handle this dog in attack mode than a child

Constant money hustle from the morons

Does anyone have the full bore and all the pieces on this one?

Also a Montgomery County DA and animal control who helped Gus get sent to another mauling and his annihilation? That DA apparently wanted to see someone dead

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, a lot on the Gus saga is on the website advocates for amber, who was the trainer Gus attacked. Jenny Romano runs a fake rescue in TX and Gus was hers. Lexus got Gus a death reprieve and sent to Milan. Lexus raised money but not enough for Gus to stay a long time, so Romano took him back and dumped Gus on someone in LA, and then he attacked again. Oh and Gus attacked someone's dog at Milans, but you know that animal aggression and human aggression are just so different. It is just a mess. Lexus got Gus off and then wash their hands of the issue.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

GUS is a celebrity mauler.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

i thought there was anti GUS facebook page too but i can't find it.

Anonymous said...

The anti gus page is Gus Attacked but it is not too active; otherwise Truth about the Lexus has information. I downloaded a copy of the lawsuit; the key document seems to be a signed statement from DPC (and what is dog psychology anyway)saying that they will not release Gus "until he is fully deemed a safe member of society" and there is no mention of this being contingent on payment. Happy to share a copy of the complaint if anyone wants it. The response by the defendants should be interesting.

Anonymous said...

Please share.

Anonymous said...

I am the anon with a copy of the lawsuit. I do not see a way to add an attachment, and I do not want to copy and paste as it is 27 pages long. Anyone that wants a copy please email dogattacklawsuit at and I will send the pdf as an attachment

Anonymous said...

Isn't Ian Dunbar who the Dunbar scale is named after? The scale that shows that pits inflict more damage in more locations than other dogs?

If so his quote is amazing and sad.