Friday, May 9, 2014

skewed priorities

Chapter Eight, Ethical Issues, Psychopathy - An Introduction to Biological Findings and Their Implications, Andrea L. Glenn and Adriane Raine, 2014


First and foremost is the fact that society must be protected from individuals who are at increased risk for causing harm.

Second, Acknowledging the feelings and rights of victims... Beyond the needs of individuals who were directly affected by a crime, we should also consider the need for justice by society as a whole. Some have suggested that our operational legal principles exist because they more or less adequately capture an intuitive sense of justice. Even if one accepts the empirical evidence that some individuals may have deficits that impair their ability to make decisions, the idea that these individuals should not be considered responsible for their behavior can still be difficult to accept. Crime elicits very strong emotional reactions in people, particularly those who are victims of crime. Graphic depictions of serious crimes generate feelings of anger and a strong desire for retribution. People feel strongly that crime must be punished and have understandable difficulty feeling sympathy for the perpetrators of these offenses. The idea that some individuals, who may commit the most serious crimes, are not entirely responsible for their behavior, no matter how severe, is hard to acknowledge.

Third (LASTLY), Humane treatment of offenders.


As Raine and Glenn stated in chapter 8, Ethical Issues, we need "a more forward-thinking system."

Psychopathy - An Introduction to Biological Findings and Their Implications, Andrea L. Glenn and Adriane Raine, 2014

Trainwreck Ed. Vol 1.0
Trainwreck Vol 1.2 - Kill Mickey NOW
Trainwreck Ed. 1.3 - Check Mate 
Trainwreck Ed. 1.4 Save MICKEEE!
Trainwreck Ed. 1.5 - Epilogue? 

Mickey the pit bull update: Sheriff Joe Arpaio takes custody of dog that attacked Phoenix boy


Anonymous said...

Mickey is only a dog. I think he is a bad dog and the people who have him now might not like him much, in the long run. But, he is still only a dog. He isn't really capable of understanding what he did to Kevin. He just attacked because he is mean. It's that simple.

There are humans who attack because they are mean. They know what they are doing, they just don't care about anyone other than themselves.

pluckybadger said...

This dog's a danger to society though and what's worse is that he will now be "spared" a completely harmless and unaware death for a life of misery in a kennel for the rest of his life.

Mickey supporters wasted over $7,000K trying to "save" this dog and lord knows what else on lawyers. That money could have gone to save other dogs, including pit bulls, who've done nothing to people and are shelter dogs. Thinking rationally isn't a nutter's strong suit though.

Kendra said...

The $7000 they raised should have been used for little Kevin's medical bills. He is the real victim and is either forgotten or blamed for an unprovoked attack that has left him maimed for life.

Human children are way more important and precious than dogs. It's sick that our society no longer understands this.

So when pit apologists ever claim "manbiters were culled", I will ask then why was Mickey sent to Sheriff Joe. Mickey sure wasn't culled.

pluckybadger said...

Kevin's situation is that rare moment where a victim raised more money than the dog, at least when you compare their donation pages. I have no doubt that Mickey's sycophant fans sent even more money behind closed doors to this killer dog.

Anonymous said...

The nutters I can't forgive. They need slapping for their lies and delusions and insistence of sacrificing the best for the worst.

I am just saying I do not have the same feelings about Mickey as I do the murderer of my friend or the murderer of a family member (2 separate murderers). Mickey is a bad dog and should have been put down, but if by some miracle he winds up happy in his dog house in jail... oh well. My friend's murderer is finally in prison. If he was happy there, I would be disappointed. He is meaner than Mickey. The other murder is unsolved. Both of these murders were unspeakably brutal, one involved a child. So, I have some personal basis for comparisons.

Mickey remains just a dumb dog who is mean, but his life was always decided by someone else. Yes, he decided to hurt Kevin. But, the humans who had him knew he was mean and were afraid of him. They could have done away with him before that day.

These human murderers may have something wrong in their brains, but they were freely walking around... not chained in a yard. They had weapons and transportation, and used both along with their own strength.

I would like to send Mickey to a certain inmate, but that guy is very mean. So, IDK if he'd be phased by Mickey. He wasn't neutered and defanged.

pluckybadger said...

Responsible dog owners put their dogs down when they're know they're dangerous and problematic. Mickey killed another dog prior to hurting Kevin so his owners knew what was up.

Instead of humanely putting this dog to sleep, they forced him to not only suffer an incomplete life at the end of a chain, but put the welfare of the child at risk with unfortunate consequences.

Anonymous said...

I agree Mickey ought to have been put down before he ever got to Kevin. However, IIRC, the babysitter tried to turn him over to AC after the puppy because she was afraid of him. But, because they didn't see him being vicious, they told her that he was her problem (more or less). I wonder if she even could have got him to a vet by herself. However, the dog technically belonged to her boyfriend. I imagine he COULD have loaded Mickey into a vehicle and he should have. But, perhaps he thought his gf was over-reacting until this horrible event with Kevin happened.

I do believe that should be part of AC's job, if it is a dog maybe someone can't handle then they should come get it.

KaD said...

The only way in which someone is 'not responsible for their behavior' is if they don't have the mental capacity to understand their act or they don't have the emotional capacity to realize it harms someone. I don't find either to be a good reason to let these people free to continue to cause harm.

Anonymous said...

I think the FEW people who truly are not responsible for their behavior have something bad enough wrong with them that they probably need to be confined somewhere. Just maybe not a prison. The ones out of that number that don't need that is such a tiny amount of people that they can be handled on a case-by-case basis.

A big reason I think this is a lot of people who have these kinds of problems often give off plenty of hints before they actually murder someone.

I just think it is really, really rare.

This being said, murderers generally are going to have some issues. But, if they can understand what they did and that it is illegal, then they can be thrown in prison or even executed. Most of them really do not care about their victim much at all.

To them, their victim isn't as important as even the most trivial things that mean more to them. But, they are aware that other people, unenlightened haters that we are, don't see it that way and get all pissy about them straight up murdering someone.

I am talking all human, not canine. But, now that I've typed it.. hm... I see where it applies to some nutterese behavior patterns.

Anonymous said...

dogs like mickey are liked by people like mickey . dumb and mean .

Sputnik said...

Re humans, I like Reid's approach better ("Our sense of fairness is killing us"). Someone with brain damage, a tumor or an extremely low IQ isn't the same as a psychopath or a pathological narcissist. The former deserve some mercy, the latter don't, not at all. When you show them mercy, they take it as a sign you're a sap and a fool. Who cares whether they're born this way or nurtured into becoming it?

Meanwhile, I don't think it's a sense of fairness as such that's killing us -- fair would be to euthanize anyone whose pit bull kills, the ol' tooth for a tooth. What's killing us is political correctness gone rampant, this idea that in any murder scenario the only real victim is the perp.

There's an element of narcissism in this 'look at me being just and fair to the perp' attitude too (Raine's approach to psychopaths, the nutter approach to mutants that have mauled or killed, some people's forgiving nutters who whine 'I didn't know'). I think this is more about showing off how elevated one is than about really caring for fairness or about the real victims.

Anonymous said...

Psychopaths truly do not give a shit what people think. People are obstacles or opportunities to them. If you do something good for them, they feel they deserved it (best case scenario) or you're a sucker (worst case scenario). If you do something bad to them, they will feel you are wrong (always) and, worst scenario, may decide to punish you for it. They will not be 'fair' in their punishment.

I have seen nutters threaten to brutally murder people (murder described in detail) over a web page saying a pit bull is less than a perfect sweet dandelion of a pet or can bite harder than a chihuahua.

FFS the bigger type of chihuahua is still very small. The smaller type could probably be eaten by a pitbull accidentally without the pitbull even knowing it happened until the chihuahua's tags came out the other end. I mean, if they were just as good, wouldn't people use them in place of pitbulls? They eat way less so there would be more money for the owner to spend on whatever.

There was a fight bust not that long ago and I spotted a potential rescue angel with pit bull about a mile from where I live. Now, even though 'it's all how they are raised', fighting maulers are the favorite thing for rescue angels to get. Maybe these maulers will be stolen by a dog fighter or all put in one cage in doggy jail. I just don't want them around me.

tropical storms said...

If it's all in how they're raised why did I never see a Chihuahua, poodle or dachshund in the dog pit? All three of those breeds were owned by dog fighters I knew personally and were raised in that environment, just like bulldog puppies.

Anonymous said...

Tropical Storms, exactly.

I was being sarcastic with 'it's all how they are raised'. HOWEVER, I am very glad to hear specifically other dogs owned by dog fighters.

From what I have read, the fights are by weight. Thus, you are exactly right, if they could have trained those other dogs they already owned to fight then they could easily have matched them.

I imagine the Dogmen of Olde (a.k.a. earlier this week) would love to be able to fight chihuahuas. Imagine how many of them they could own, feed, and transport in place of the bulldogs they actually use. They could easily maintain a yard of 200 dogs.

And since, according to nutters, chihuahuas bite more then the dog fights would be that much more thrillingly bloody.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and honestly IDK if fight bust bulldogs are any better or worse than beloved pet pit bulls for the mauling factor.

The only thing I can see if the ones that are used to being taken off the chain for rolls might automatically start fighting whatever dog that's around because it thinks that is what the humans want. But, OTOH, regular old pet pit bulls do that sometimes as well and they usually don't have the courtesy to fight another bulldog... oh, no, they'll jump on a yorkie puppy (like beating up a 2 pound dog proves anything).

I just want the nutters to be somewhat consistent with their b.s. If it's nurture over nature in their minds, then ALL fight bust dogs should be pts immediately since they were "raised wrong". Just as dogs taken off drug dealers, etc. should be. Really, most of the dogs they rescue if a pristine upbringing is essential to a docile pet. Good grief, now that I really think about it from their POV, it doesn't even hold up for five seconds!

I guess they just say things that sound good at the moment and don't worry about it past that.

Sputnik said...

Anonymous @ 3:01 AM, one of the signs of psychopathy is glibly contradicting one lie with another in a single paragraph (then both with yet another, etc) and not minding at all when it's apparent the listener knows the psychopath is lying.

tropical storms said...

Anonymous matches are made by gender/specified weight to the fraction. On rare occasion the two dogs are specified. Most dog men don't keep bulldogs as pets as they know that three dogs were never bred or intended to be pets. Genetically cold bulldogs however are the exception, not very smart but entirely safe.

Anonymous said...

I think it is the terrier in them that makes people think they might be made into pets.

But, it seems to me (from reading, so I could be wrong) that the dogmen looked on them like a kind of livestock. They liked some of them, sounds like, but not the way a person likes a pet. They seem to have their guard up with these dogs (for good reason). But, with a pet a person doesn't want to be on guard always... so I am not surprised you saw them having pet poodles, etc.

I am thinking of a specific fight bust. The dogs are fighting among themselves any chance they get. So, I hope people realize this group of dogs are fighters and that's it. They were all chained up in the woods before the dog fighter got caught. But, this seems to be the kind of thing that makes rescue angels' hearts got pitter pat for the wiggle butts.

Anonymous said...

The dogmen did not live with these dogs. Fighting breeds, pit bulls, were kept chained up outside, away from the family and the house, and separate from each other because they would kill each other if they were kennelled together.

(this is why you see dog fighting interests involved in opposing anti-chaining laws- keeping the pit bulls separated is essentail, and chaining is the cheapest way to do it. After all many of the dogs will die in the pit soon enough anyway.)

The dogmen had companion animals as pets for their family- NOT PIT BULLS.

The dogmen knew their wives and children would be killed by these pit bulls, and they kept their dog fighting life separate from their family lives

Anonymous said...

It isn't anything but lies that make some people (sheep) think they could be good as pets. Pit bulls were not created by humans as breeds to be pets, never were pets, and never will be companion animals

It is only heaps of propaganda, a complicit deceitful media, and some greedy bastards that lie through their teeth and rope in the moronic inferior underclass to follow along that get anybody to "think" they will be good as pets.

Fraud from start to finish.

Anonymous said...

I'm not surprised they did this. It seems like common sense, really.

Used to be it was RARE anyone owned such a dog. I remember not even knowing what they were (this is partly because people didn't call them 'pit bulls', they called them 'bulldogs', but only one person I knew of had one). I think this is why gullible people can be told almost anything about them. Most people have no practical experience with them. The Dogmen did. They knew how the dogs acted and they knew what a serious dog fight looked like (something a lot of people have never seen, serious means the dogs really are trying to kill each other).

After the tale of Kissy Face, I don't see how anyone can trust pit bulls. Kissy Face was well taken care of and, in photos, looks gentle. They had her for eight years. She never acted aggressive except for that time when she KILLED A BABY. Then she went right out and passed a temperment test in doggy jail before being pts. I mean, who wants such an animal.

And that dog had never fought before. How much more fierce are fight bust dogs going to be?

Anonymous said...

One of the interesting stories of the Dogmen is one where Grand Champion Zebo is hurt. So, he gets brought indoors to be watched over and kept warm. Then he sees the wife's pet cat and he's off and running with a couple of grown men on his heels to catch him before he got the cat. The cat lived in the house. Zebo only got to come in when he was badly injured even though he won money for the owner. This is because he was very dangerous, not because the owner just loved cats more than dogs.

Mom in Eugne said...

"After the tale of Kissy Face, I don't see how anyone can trust pit bulls. Kissy Face was well taken care of and, in photos, looks gentle. They had her for eight years. She never acted aggressive except for that time when she KILLED A BABY. Then she went right out and passed a temperment test in doggy jail before being pts. I mean, who wants such an animal."

Exactly. I really don't get how anyone could read that story, and ever defend pits again. It's not like the story is all that unusual either- how many kids have died in similar circumstances?

Pits are just not fit to live in modern society at all. Extinction would be best for everyone, even pits themselves.

Mom in Eugene said...

Sherriff Psycho Joe is kissing the mauler? Please, please, please, let Mickey go Mickey on him. That old racist piece of shit, I sure hope he gets his throat ripped out. I bet he adopted Mickey because Mickey ripped the face off a poor immigrant that is brown. He is just that much of a hateful old fool.

The comments on that article make me puke. That so many people think it's totally appropriate to rip a kids face off over a bone. A BONE THAT WASN'T EVEN THERE FFS. I hope every single person that said nasty shit about Kevin, or his Mom, gets mauled.

Normal dogs do not do this. Even ones that resource guard badly aren't taking kids faces off. JFC. This is exactly what happens when people think pit behavior is just like other dogs. They make other dogs look bad! It is SICK.

Anonymous said...

Not long ago, I was sitting on a couch with this other girl and a BitesMore came and sat between us. Most people call them chihuahuas. So, the BitesMore couldn't really get her mouth properly around her little rawhide bone. So, the girl reaches down and adjusts the bone. Yes, she touched a bone that WAS there in the BitesMore's maw.

The girl was not bitten or even snapped at... the BitesMore understood what she was doing even as she did it. The BitesMore's tail wagged in thanks as she continued to chew her bone and the girl was unmauled. She even said suddenly, "I want a dog."

This was a girl much older than 4, I think she is 16. So, she COULD HAVE taken the bone that did exist. But, the BitesMore knew good and well that wouldn't happen. The BitesMore isn't all that familiar with this girl or me. Yet, somehow, BitesMore was friendly to us both.

Oh, but there wasn't a mean dog around like a pit bull to scare the BitesMore out of her wits. So, she is a pretty docile little chihuahua. There were a couple of big dogs visiting, but they didn't live there so they stayed outside. They were normal, friendly dogs though. All the dogs had been hanging out earlier and having fun. There were a bunch of older kids to play with them (and plenty of adults to supervise). No dog drama occurred despite it being a cookout and kids were carrying their little plates of food past the dogs.

Normal dogs are freaking domesticated. Maulers are who knows what.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

there are a lot of sentiments of the authors (and of the craven readers above) that i do not agree with however, the authors got it right. our FIRST priority is to protect society and prevent victimization. our SECOND priority is to the victim. and FINALLY, treating the offenders humanely. consideration for the offenders comes in last place.

tropical storms said...

Well I think the dogs should be humanely destroyed. The keepers on the other hand can be eaten alive by wild hogs as far as I'm concerned. No great loss.

Anonymous said...

Joe Arpaio did the photo for political reasons, and if you figure out who he was trying to please and placate politically, you know where the money behind "pit bull advocacy" comes from

Anonymous said...

Yes, please for the dogs. I'm sorry for them being mutants, but not sorry enough to sacrifice any humans who're uninvolved in dog fighting.

Anonymous said...

What happened to Kevin just shouldn't have. People failed, knowing the dog was dangerous they failed to warn Kevin's parents, or his parents ignored the warning. No matter, a little kid was attacked for walking near a dangerous dog on a chain. If you believe an animal is dangerous, you keep children away from it. So the babysitter couldn't have it put down, and I take it the owner didn't bother. Then why in the hell would you choose to babysit and risk life and limb? Mickey should have been put down, or rehomed to someone who could and would handle him properly before he was stuck on a chain where kids could walk up to him. I don't blame Kevin, I don't blame his parents. I do blame the babysitter for not being responsible enough to prevent it. I have a small amount of sympathy for Mickey, he really should be put down instead of what amounts to serving a life sentence for doing nothing more than what he knows to do. Very bad choices were made, by humans, regarding a dog, and sadly this is what happens.

Anonymous said...

Pit bulls: Bad dogs? Or bad owners?

Henry County Rabies Control Officer Vince Farah said his office has reported up to 30 cases involving pit bulls or pit bull mixes this year alone.
He used an analogy when talking about different dog breeds.

"The other breed versus the bully breed, which pertains to pits, is the difference between a BB gun and an AK-47," Farah said. "When pit bulls attack, they do serious damage because of their nature. They latch on and they shake, twist and turn without letting go."

Anonymous said...

Good news from Britain. Dog bite law with serious teeth:

Anonymous said...

I want to clarify what I mean about sympathy for Mickey. If he'd have not been there to begin with, he couldn't have attacked Kevin. If the nutters had bothered to shut up, he wouldn't now be living a life where some will fear him, and some might mistreat him. My sympathy isn't misplaced, I'm sorry for his own sake he was "saved".

Anonymous said...

Yes, I agree 100%. A person who CHOOSES to babysit ought NOT to have a dangerous dog. I don't care if it is in a crate or on a chain.

Honestly, it would probably be better if they didn't have any dog. Because that can just lead to complications whether the dog is actually dangerous per se. However, with some types of dogs, they are pretty easy to keep completely separate from the children because they are small and quiet and obedient.

But, anyone who has a dog that they are afraid of themselves that they have tried to get rid of and failed, then they need to get their boyfriend to come and get the dog before they decide to do some babysitting. If he won't, then they have to figure out a different way to make money.

The fact is, kids are curious about dogs. Most dogs a four-year-old will meet are friendly because MOST PEOPLE will keep their dogs away from such small children. This includes even dogs that aren't "dangerous", but just aren't used to kids.

So, even if a dog is on a chain or in a crate, a babysat child might get curious and go near the dog. Although it sounds like Mickey was on a very long chain and Kevin just went into chain range. He may not have even been interested in Mickey at all.

I really think some of the people who step up screaming that an animal like Mickey MUST BE "saved" should take him home with them for a while. Unfortunately, they probably would lose track of him in about 15 minutes perhaps due to the fact it's hard to hold onto a leash when you've been mauled.

Mom in Eugene RSM said...

The baby sitter should never have gone to a home with a pit bull, period, but we know this is common these days (see: Dax). People generally know pits are dog aggressive, but most really don't think they are human aggressive. So when Mickey killed a small dog, that was just Mickey being a pit bull, it didn't make them think he would attack a human.

This is why the propaganda of culling main biters and pits being human friendly is so very dangerous. I do not believe for one minute that baby sitter thought Mickey was a danger to Kevin. The dog was chained up too. She was dead wrong, but I think she was just an idiot instead of willfully ignorant. Not that it matters.

BTW, The owner DID take the dog in and request he be euthanized! He did the right thing, though he ought to have done it after Mickey killed a dog, but when this happened he wanted Mickey PTS ASAP. When he turned him over the city, and gave permission to PTS, the city then decided not to do this. They could ignore him because the dog was now theres.

It was the intervention of OTHERS that spared this beast, not the owner. That is what is so sick. At least the owner can claim emotional attachment, but strangers? They rallied and sent money to SAVE A PIT THAT RIPPED THE FACE OFF A BABY. The evil Lexus Project worked to save it too. SICK.

They claim the dog was innocent because he touched his bone, but that is not only UNTRUE (there was no bone), its irrelevant. Any dog that would rip your face off for touching a bone is deadly, period.

Mom in Eugene said...

I really have little to no care for the offenders of violent crimes. The only exception is someone that kills because of a (removable) brain tumor, because once its treated, the problem is gone. That is truly an innocent attacker.

Having low IQ, or severe mental illness, may make me more merciful, but it doesn't mean that they ought not to be locked up. If they are a danger, they must be separated from society, regardless of why they are dangerous. I would prefer a mental hospital or something, because prison ought to be for criminals that could have acted differently, but chose not too.

I don't see humane treatment as a fairness issue, but as a way to protect society. Its more about self interest, than care for those that, IMO, deserve none. The ONLY reasons I think offenders of violent crimes should be treated *humanely* are:

I am loathe to give the state any more power to harm our own citizens. They simply cannot be trusted. They already abuse their power, giving them more legal permission to harm would be even more dangerous to the rest of us.

Also, if guards/enforcement/officers are given formal permission for brutality, they may become a menace to all of society. Brutality begets brutality, and tolerating it in this way makes society more accepting of violence overall (IMO only).

Anyone that can do serious violence to another, outside of war and in defense of self/family/innocents, can become a danger to society, even if it is state sanctioned violence. The fewer of these people, the better. As much as criminals deserve it, it only makes US worse.

Also, our system is not too just, and innocents get dragged in more often than is acceptable.

Lastly, these people generally get out of prison eventually (a shame). Tormenting them, and doing nothing to improve the odds of reoffending/being a drain on the rest of us, will only add further danger to the public, down the line. While I prefer natural life in prison for these dangerous felons, and psychopaths, that is not what is happening right now.

If a victim, or their family does away with the offender, well, so be it. I am not opposed to this, in general.

I prefer prevention; we generally do nothing until after the fact, which fails society IMO. If we combined social improvement and crime prevention with strict enforcement, and longer sentencing, I would feel better about our system. But that is another topic.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 914, I knew the owner tried to have Mickey pts. What I did not know is that he did this the same DAY that Mickey attacked Kevin.

So, already, that quickly the owner's rights were taken away allowing Mickey to live long enough to be 'saved'. Someone wanted a test case and was watching for one to show up.

I was mostly confused at the time because I knew the owner and the gf where Mickey stayed both wanted him to pts. I didn't hear he lost ownership of Mickey until the creature was waaaay past his 10 day quarantine.

Anonymous said...

This is a blog article that quotes a newspaper article that is talking about Kara who was killed by her family's pit bulls on her birthday.

At that point, her parents were at work. Kara and her little sister were being babysat by her grandmother. She was attacked while the three of them were in a room together. The pit bulls charged in and attacked her.

Yet the newspaper says some nonsense like 'wrong circumstances at the wrong time'. (The blog rightfully takes exception to this foolishness.)

I am SO SICK of the 'wrong place/wrong time' or 'wrong circumstances/wrong time'. It's used for murder victims all the time as well. But, not everyone who has bad, horrible, fatal things happen to them is in the 'wrong place'.

Kara was only just four. She had little control over her 'place' or 'circumstances'. Yet, what little control she did have, she used.

Her dog Brody had knocked her into the wall in the playroom. So, she left Brody and the playroom and went to where her grandmother and little sister were. She told her grandmother what had just happened and that Brody hurt her. Her grandmother, assuming Kara's own pet wouldn't try to hurt her, tried to comfort her with the thought maybe Brody didn't mean it. But, not two second later, he (and the other one/ones) runs in and snatches Kara away.

If Kara had been able to talk to her grandmother even a minute before being attacked again, then maybe her grandmother would have saved both girls. But, Kara wasn't given those few extra seconds and neither was her grandmother.

It's not far to make it sound like a little child was doing something wrong when she wasn't. She was in her own house! She was barely four.

Who is the writer of the newspaper article trying to be 'fair' to with the ridiculous implication that Kara was in the 'wrong circumstances'? The three pit bulls? The article is about them being pts, so even if they were the world's only newspaper-reading pits, it isn't necessary to spare their delicate feelings.

Especially when they're stomping all over Kara's family's feelings. Her grandmother was injured trying to help Kara. She probably was still undergoing some phase of treatment still.

Kara's little sister saw the dogs attack Kara. Her grandmother told her to 'run upstairs and hide', so she heard the rest. Hopefully, due to her young age, the memory will fade.

Kara's parents came home expecting to watch her open birthday presents, but instead finding their worst nightmare.

Someone in my family was murdered (by a human). This 'wrong place at the wrong time' stuff HURTS. Losing a person through violence hurts a lot. So, words kind of can't compare... but... parents take the guilt to their graves. I saw this first hand. It is awful.

Kara's situation isn't exactly the same, but the weasel words and the trite phrases are what shuts down meaningful dialogue. I really think if people would discuss some of these dog issues maturely, there wouldn't have to be another little girl who dies the way Kara did.

Anonymous said...

Mickey's owner should have had him pts after he killed the other dog. There's another story going around right now about a husky, she got out on a dogsitter and killed a neighbor's rabbit. She was a year old when it happened. I don't know if she was savage or playing to hard, as a puppy could do. I don't think that dog should be pts. It's just not the same thing, as dog on dog, dog on cat, or dog on human aggression. Why is it most dogs regardless of size are ok with cats but almost no bully breed is?
I know Mickey's owners wanted him pts. I got the email from when the whole save Mickey campaign started, it was all about how this innocent dog bit (not mauled) this little boy, for taking his bone. The email was very misleading and disgusting. His former owners wishes should have been honored. He shouldn't be living out what I still say amounts to a life sentence, since he is a dog. Dogs who attack or kill people forfeit their "right" to life the same as murders imo.

Anonymous said...

Aw, poor bunny. I love bunnies.

Anonymous said...

I'll tell you from experience, that the husky should be PTS. The owner will likely laugh off the death of the bunny, and the neighbors will either never have another small animal again, because of that dog, or that dog will be terrorizing them and their animals for years to come.

I had an Akita once. Loved that dog. Knew she was a cat killer the minute I we got her out of the car after her trip from the pound. She'd nearly yank you over trying to go over just the scent of a cat. Took a month or more to make her reliable on a leash, but she was NEVER reliable around cats.

Loved that dog, thought I'd get another after she died, but one day she broke containment and killed my cat in front of me, as I knew she have, if she ever got the chance.

If it had been the neighbor's cat (duck, rabbit, goat), I would have put her down right then. THAT is the responsible thing to do. I live on acreage, and doubled down on security to make sure she NEVER broke containment again. She lived to 14, a ripe old age for a 110 lbs dog, and NEVER got loose again.

I believe I am the exception to the general rule. Pretty much nobody cares if their dogs chases or kills another's animal, be it cat, rabbit, chicken, goat, horse, etc. That's why it's not only legal to kill a dog harassing ANY livestock, it's also the law that the owner put it down after it's killed livestock (which nobody does because AC has all the spine of refrigerator mold).

Mom in Eugene said...

I don't know why you didn't PTS your dog for killing your defenseless cat. Just because it was YOUR cat doesn't make it any less your responsibility to PTS. Thats pretty disgusting, giving the dog another chance to kill, containment or no. There is no reason to keep animals that tear each other up like this.

But then again, I would never have kept a dog that was cat aggressive, period. I would have PTS as soon as I found out this issue. But keeping a cat killer when YOU had a cat? That beggars belief. It's your job to protect your pets from this kind of brutal death, but you pretty much invited it in, by just owning them both.

Don't think I don't know about this. Back when I was a young, ignorant, pit owner, my pit killed a friends small dog. Needless to say, it was killed, by me, just a few minutes afterwards. Was it horrible to kill my own beloved pet? Of course it was, but it was necessary. While taking it to a vet would have been preferred, the situation didn't allow it, for safety sake.

Seriously, there are plenty of dogs that people can love that don't go nuts to kill cats. Why we tolerate any such attacks in our pet dogs, is beyond me. Maybe had the dog been a semi wild working dog, like some of the huskies and malamutes in the far north are, I could understand this. But a PET? No. Just. No. Pets should never be allowed to kill other pets or livestock.

Glad you contained your dog so it didn't kill again, but I think you were also lucky. Humans are imperfect creatures, all it takes is one mistake and tragedy ensues when it comes to dangerous dogs. I really am not trying to be a dick, I just cannot fathom keeping a dog that killed my cat in front of me.

Anonymous said...

The husky was saved. The owners were on their honeymoon when it happened, and agreed to move the dog out of state. Since she was only a year old, and still a puppy, she couldn't really have known better. I wouldn't have a dog pts for killing a rodent. I feel for the rabbits owners, but even if they're pets, they are rodents. We had dogs who were mousers, I've seen dogs kill rats, had a cat who killed a baby opossum, and we had pet rodents. We made sure the dogs and cats never could get to the various pet rodents. If they had it would've been our fault, not the cats or dogs. Oddly, my ex's pit and pit mix never showed any interest in his rats, or any aggression towards any other animals, unless a strange dog was brought into their house. I think there's a difference between being territorial and animal aggression in general. Those dogs only barked at squirrels on the porch or the French bulldog who sat out front and taunted them. Defending their house against strange animals, and only the mother did that, and going after animals otherwise are different. As long as a dog was outside, she ignored it, the cats that roamed were in no danger at all, one stray lives in his back yard, and him and the dogs ignore each other. I'll never believe all pits or mixes are dangerous, but I know the potential is always there.
Another bad owner, is my nieces neighbor, his dog has killed two cats. She and her fiancé weren't aware of that when they moved in. They rescued a sweet little pug, and have friends and kids over all the time. After the weekend before last Derrick has said he will not go outside without his gun anymore. He was in the garage with some friends and Frank the pug. Tank, the cat killer pit came in and cornered them, as Derrick picked up a hammer and was about to swing, Darren, came in. He owns Tank, and got shitty with them for threatening his dog. Derrick told him, it won't happen again, the next time that dog comes in their yard it's dead. How sad, they've only lived in the house a month and are having trouble out of the neighbors because of a bad dog and a bad owner. (Derrick will shoot the dog, for the protection of everybody) I'm staying away with my son, until the dog is dead.

Anonymous said...

Excuse me for butting off-topic, but have some seen the New York Post
(a ludicrous newspaper, so bad it makes a parody of lurid tabloidism)
--it's mawkish telling of the death of Nick Santino, the failed actor who euthanized his dog, and then himself, after his apartment's residents supposedly began to unkindly pressure him because he had a grandfathered-in pit bull.

The comments are hilariously lurid, and, predictably, drowning in bathos. Not only is Craven Desires a consortium of pedophiles, cyberbullies, pornographers, bestialists, and the cause of a 16-year-old's near-suicide (who, natch, quickly appeared) we are also pro-Neo Nazi! Shocked, shocked. So THATS why we mention Dachshunds and German Shepherds so frequently!
Even if I approved of pit bulls, I'd be horrified to be associated with such cracked, low-wattage Carneys, whose sly and stupid viciousness, combined with maudlin, unquestioning sanctimony, make them a breed more vile than their dogs. Now that would be reason for suicide.

Anonymous said...

Hear about the latest pity party? The news station's leaving out that pibbles growled at everyone and was probably in the process of attacking someone.

Anonymous said...

Dog is only 14mo old and he's already flexing that pibble gene.

Anonymous said...

I am rendered briefly benevolent due to WineInABox, but baybbbe boyyye lookkkkes real like kind of a Naked mole rat. Congrrrrrats! He will make you inn to a human slurpeee someday. Becuz of the bad vibes.The pellets will rust an fall out an yousss kan yousse! im to fix yourre Honda. Bad Vibes rule!

Mom in Eugene said...

"I'll never believe all pits or mixes are dangerous, but I know the potential is always there."

The problem isn't that they will all attack, its that you just never know which ones will, until it is way too late. At that point, you often have a severe injury, or death.

Anonymous said...

Rabbits are NOT rodents. Maybe you believe it is fine for dogs to kill them, but they aren't rodents. They are a totally different class of animals.

Anonymous said...

Mace and shot in the face? Yes, he was probably attacking something (pet, livestock) or someone when it happened. Because of the mace, I think maybe a dog being walked or a human.

If he is 'like a child' to this women, then she doesn't need to let him roam.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1:58, my apologies. I don't believe it's fine for dogs to keep killing them, but it's not uncommon. I've known people who raised rabbits, usually for meat, only to have a hound dog kill them, be it a neighbor's or their own. Anyway, pet rabbits shouldn't be outside unsupervised, dogs aren't the only danger, so are cats, snakes, and birds of prey. I think a puppy killing a rabbit isn't a reason to automatically order the dog pts. Dogs, because they're descended from wolves have a prey drive, and they're not smart enough to know the difference between pet, meat, and wild rabbits.
Mom in Eugene, the potential is why I've realized there's a problem. Having known plenty of sweet, well behaved pits, I used to want one. Now there's no way, I'm not risking my son, myself, or anybody else. It's a matter of you learn better, you do better. Just because the majority of rots I've met have been great dogs, doesn't mean I'd ever own one. I don't want a dog for protection, I want a companion for my son and myself. If I choose a bigger dog, it might be a boxer or Doberman, both can be great pets. If I choose a smaller dog, it'll probably be a beagle or a shit-zu, both can be very sweet and loving pets. I've also met a ton of smaller rat terriers and love that breed. I won't be getting a pit bull, or a pit mix, it might be a great dog, but I'm not gambling on what might be.

Packhorse said...

There is a pit mix owned by a local business owner that appears to be "cold." I've patted it on the head, walked it outside briefly, and attempted to toss a ball to it (which it didn't understand--the ball bounced off the dog and rolled away.)

That said, would I trust it with another dog, a cat, a child? Absolutely not. And I feel extra safe because the business in question is a gun store!

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Anon @May 13, 2014 at 2:47 PM Says,

"’Today I betrayed my best friend and put down my best friend, Rocco trusted me and I failed him. He didn’t deserve this.”

This is the suicide note left by Nick Santino after he euthanized his beloved pit bull on Tuesday, January 24, according to the New York Post.


I'm not going to insult you as you've done to the readers and commentors here, not because I respect anything you say, but out of respect for a human who took his own life.

Instead, I'd like to point out that Nick could have MOVED OUT and/or adopted out his pit dog. Neither had to die. Instead, he took his life and his pit dog's life.

Wasn't there a woman in the last year who choked out her own pit bull with its own leash?

So now the question to YOU. Your comment, "So THATS why we mention Dachshunds and German Shepherds so frequently!" and then your comment, "Even if I approved of pit bulls,..."

Who is "WE"? Sounds like a pit bull dog owner to me. As always, contradicting yourself.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:55, I am glad you do not think rabbits should be killed. I just wanted to point out they aren't rodents, no matter what. I love rabbits so much.

My rabbits are pets. They are inside. One got out once and I was in a total frantic sweat trying to catch him (which I did) because of dogs. We have some fairly docile dogs, thankfully, but they are hunting dogs. So, they would never bother ME, but they might attack my bunny. I guess he knew that because he spent most of his time hiding under my car.

I actually haven't weighed in on what to do with the husky because I do not know anything about the dog. Or the rabbit... And I don't really want to know. I love rabbits. But, my sister had a husky (it and my rabbit never met), and she was a very sweet dog.

But, we thought she might consider my rabbit food. So, when I went to see my fiance (I would take my rabbit), I could not go and see my sister(she lived in between) due to our pets not really being too compatible. We didn't want to test it because my rabbit is scared to death of dogs anyway let alone a big dog.

Anonymous said...

The dogs I mentioned aren't MY dogs. They are neighbors' dogs. I don't have any dogs. Someone was talking to me IRL. I wouldn't own a dog due to having rabbits and one of them really afraid of dogs.

Anonymous said...

Nick Santos was able to keep his pit bull in his apartment. It was grandfathered in, but he couldn't use the elevator. This is because his dog bit someone (not badly, I guess) on the elevator.

HE wanted to move to a different apartment and that new apartment would not accept his dog. I do not know why he wanted to move. Unless he had a GOOD REASON, then YES, he did "betray his best friend".

It is not the apartment he lived in's fault. It is Nick's fault.

Now, it is possible that he could no longer afford the rent where he was living where they were going to let him keep the pit bull. IDK. The only thing I have seen mentioned is the inconvenience of not being able to use the elevator.

He lived high enough up that it was quite a few stairs to go down, but ONLY when he had his pit bull with him. He, by himself, could use the elevator. So, the pit bull probably benefitted from going the stairs anyway as they need a lot of exercise.

The nutter that strangled her dog.. IDK her situation. I've just heard she strangled her dog because some apartment wouldn't take him. IDK if that was every apartment wouldn't take him or she just wanted to live in that apartment.

I don't know if she even tried to find another home for her dog or if Nick did. Where are all of these people who want to save dogs like Mickey when dogs like those need saving? Nick's dog had even bitten someone, so they should have been all over them.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:09, we had two pet rabbits. Both of them were dumped outside and found by my daughter. They were very sweet pets. We also had a recused gerbil, house sparrow, pet hamster, beagle mix and 6 cats. Mama was pregnant when the owners booted her out, and we were finding homes for young cats/older kittens. I think we might have even had some of the goldfish the kids had won at carnivals. Keeping all of the animals safe was a challenge, but we managed to do it. All but the dog, and the cats have since crossed the rainbow bridge due to old age. I have no doubt the beagle mix would've killed any of the rodents or the rabbits and some of the cats would've killed the bird, rodents and maybe the bunnies too. As an animal lover it would've broken my heart had it happened, but I wouldn't have had the "guilty" animal pts. I would've made sure it didn't happen again, but would understand their instinct was what caused it, not malice. I see dogs like Mickey as different, if a dog bites someone invading your home, it's not an automatic candidate for being pts. If it bites unprovoked and without a very real reason (sick or injured, while lost and scared) then it shouldn't get the chance to do it again. I think rehoming the husky, who was very young is an ok choice, as long as she never hurts anything again, then she's not a bad dog. I'd like to know a little more, if she was trying to play, that's different than hunting. Puppies can hurt or kill smaller animals without meaning to. It's sad, but it is a risk we take with pets.

Anonymous said...
This is why I don't allow my six year old outside alone. I really can't tell what kind of dog this is, but I swear if there's a campaign to save it, I'm going to raise counter-HELL. Bravo! to the cat for jumping in. Also the end of the video does show the bite wounds, so it's graphic. Please, let this dog be pts, it's a danger to society.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

anon 2:28, THAT is why you don't let your teenager, 30 year old sister or 55 yr old uncle outside alone. and by alone, i mean unarmed. it's fucking ridiculous that we live like this.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

re: NICK SANTINO, i was blown away at how the pit bull apologia exploited this man's compromised emotional state to further their agenda. let's see, the reasons that pit bulls maul and kill are complex and require a cadre of elite nutters and highly trained dog behaviorists to tease out the facts YET the reason THIS man took his life is because he was "hounded to death" by us haters. FUCKING IDIOTS! all the way from C. U. N. Tuesday MARABITO to JANE BERKEY to BRENT TOELLNER to the wackadoodles in the utah cult to "pulitzer prize winning journalist john woestendiek. it is just mind blowing that people could be either this stupid or this machiavellian.

Anonymous said...

All you anon's who think killing another animal is 'instinct'.

Fine. But if your dog kills my animal, or attempts to, I'm going to shoot it and I have every right to.

You've proven yourself an incompetent owner once you allow it to attack another animal. Therefore, you forfeit the right to that animal's life.

Thing is, we've all got really stupid about what regular dogs are capable of doing; we think they're freaking stuffed toys that pee. And most people can't even comprehend what "capable" dogs can do.

Anonymous said...

To me, the dog in the video looks like a pit bull, acts like a pit bull, bites like a pit bull...

And for those who think arming ourselves is the (only)answer, got a course in gun safety for toddlers you'd be willing to recommend?

We've got to get this 'trend' moving in the other direction.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:10, for any pet's I've ever had, or will have own sake, mine have NEVER been allowed to run. They NEVER will be. If I have a pet, trust that I care about it enough to keep it safe. Also trust I care enough to keep others (people and animals) safe from it. It wasn't always easy keeping the mix of rescued animals we had safe from one another, but we did it. If the rabbits were out of their cages, no other animals were allowed in the room during that time, same with the gerbil and hamster, and bird. Since all of them, as well as the dog and cats required daily attention, it was hard work. Our kids learned a ton about what it takes to keep a naked nestling alive, they were a regular part of caring for the animals they brought home. Pets are great when cared for properly and a good owner keeps them safe and clean. We loved all of them, all but the hamster were rescues of some sort, we had him before any of the others. We lived in a place where people dumped animals regularly and having kids with big hearts meant the dog got brought home, then the pregnant cat, the bird was on our porch, the gerbil was left behind when someone moved. I don't want that many different types of animals again, but it was a learning experience for all of us.

Dawn James, I thought so too. I hope they put it down!

Anonymous said...

I only have rabbits. I had dogs in the past. They were sweet dogs and I don't think they could hurt my rabbit, BUT I wouldn't want him to be nervous.

Since I love rabbits so much, I will probably never have another dog.

IF during the brief amount of time my bunny escape (his home broke in between my car and my house, then he ran under my car) one of the neighbor's hounds got loose and got him.. well, honestly, I would have fought the dog for him. Since they are normal dogs, I would have won since they know NOT to bite humans.

Thing is, these dogs are well fed and they are fenced. I wouldn't gamble and let bunny out on purpose. But, that day I got lucky and none of them paid any attention to me. So, no dogs came over.

IF one had, then I probably wouldn't say anything to the owner unless they personally were an asshole about it. I don't think they would be, but just if they were.

I also wouldn't demand they do anything except maybe help me with dealing (I don't mean monetarily, I mean ... I'm a girl, they're guys, maybe they can dig better) with arrangements. But, this is because they don't have mean dogs.

Their dogs are usually put up because they do care about them. But, sometimes dogs will make an especial effort to get out and manages to do it. So far, the hounds never have that I know about. But, just like the fact my rabbit got loose that one time.. same thing could happen.

Anonymous said...

In the case of the husky, it was being cared for while the couple went on their honeymoon. I don't think they were being assholes about it, they offered to rehome it, out of state. IMO an asshole wouldn't do that, they'd expect the neighbor to tolerate the dog. The dog has been moved, and the owners will follow it. Good luck to them and the dog, I hope she never kills a rabbit again.

The dog in the video, is a "guard dog" that got off of a leash according to Entertainment Tonight. If you're going to train an animal to be that vicious, you have to pay the consequences. If that boy was my six year old, I'd sue the owners to kingdom come. "Guard" dogs shouldn't attack like that, their purpose is to watch over property or family or something like that, not to go out of their territory and maim innocent people. I thought, at least, when it comes to guard dogs, you taught them boundaries and they were supposed to know their place.

Anonymous said...

Yes, guard dogs are supposed to know the property lines (which doesn't include the sidewalk or road in case any nutters read this) and obey them. Also, if that dog believed that little boy was a 'threat', it should've barked and given him a chance to retreat. The dog darted right up and knocked him over and bit him hard. That cat was on the scene with a quickness and his mother wasn't too far behind. That dog was just a plain old mean dog.

This is a back in the day pit bull, not a recent one, but my fiance's uncle trained his as a guard dog. She would stop at the property line. If the person backed off, she even stopped barking though she'd watch them until they were gone. As far as I know, she never bit anyone. She was protecting against a specific problem that was not perpetrated by kids, but by adults (his uncle had to move due to a rapid decline in the neighborhood, so she only had much to worry about for a limited time). So, if anyone could ever train one of those things to stop then I think there is no excuse for the dog in this video.

More than likely, he was just mean and the owner thought that meant he was protecting the house. People like to see their pets in the best light. Which makes me skeptical about the aforementioned pit, but my fiance swears he saw her stop at the property line.

Anonymous said...

The video is exactly what I fear with Ambully down the street. School will be out soon. Kids including mine will want to be outside playing and being kids. I wish the police would take my reports more seriously, the way this dog acts when it sees people passing by, out the window isn't normal. The owner lets young girls walk it, and they aren't going to be able to stop it. Is the dog in the video a pit, or a mix? It doesn't matter, as long as there's no save this poor innocent animal campaign. I'm a normal person, I like dogs, I don't like living in fear of attacking dogs. It's time to upgrade from my knife and pepper spray to bear spray and a sturdy walking stick made from a blown down branch. I never thought I'd feel this way, and I hate it. Why can't people have normal dogs that won't maul or kill kids who are out playing? Or who might attack the seniors across the street for riding their electric carts, sitting outside to smoke and talk, or walk their mostly cute and sweet little dogs on leashes? Maybe we should give all the pit lovers one state, fence it in, put electric and barbed wire around the top and bottom of the fence, and the rest of us can live in peace.

Anonymous said...

Try to get a hardened oak or hickory walking stick, pibble's head is HARD.

As far as the video goes, I showed my fiance the video. He doesn't think the dog is anything specific.

Which, of course, means it could have some pit bull in it. Or some other kind of hard-biting dog.

When I saw the preview of the video, I thought the dog just knocked the kid off his bike. Then when I saw video and the bite wounds... there are a lot of dogs that are capable of knocking such a small child off his bike (I'm not saying a lot would because they wouldn't, just that a lot could).

But, there aren't very many that could inflict as much damage as it did before the cat and the mother intervened.

The cat knew what that dog was all about and came at him. The cat probably had a few narrow escapes of its own, so knew that it had to protect the boy.

I guess if I was that mother I would make sure the cat went outside to play with the boy until he gets old enough to defend himself.

BTw, this particular dog has been pts so it will not be knocking any more little boys off of bicycles. It was vicious toward Animal Control, so they had to put it down.

I wonder if the people were filming the driveway because they were worried about the dog. Maybe it'd barked at them. The mother had to have been either outside or standing near the door looking out the window because she was there on the scene really fast. She was bitten trying to drive the dog away.

I hope the owners of the dog aren't assholes. Maybe they didn't realize their dog was this mean. I hope that more for the little boy and his mom and his cat. I'd be nice if their neighbors were nice people who honestly did not intend to harbor a vicious beast.

Anonymous said...

I meant IT would be nice. Not that I would be nice. I really do not live anywhere near hero cat and family, so my niceness wouldn't help them much. LOL

Anonymous said...

The dog is a lab/chow mix. Hmmm...

The mom was outside when the attack occurred.

Anonymous said...

It's storm season where I live. There are tons of oaks, so I'll keep a lookout, during my daily walks. If a dog ever attacks my child, it will be a fatal mistake. If Ambully (monster in my mind) attacks anyone and I'm near, I'll kill him. My senior neighbors have been warned about the menace, so have neighborhood parents. I think some of the parents think I'm overreacting. I hope they see this video to know I'm not. The dog in the video is half the size of the monster dog, a cat couldn't fend it off. A healthy adult would not stop this dog without something to defend themselves. Kids wouldn't stand a chance. I know it's not an if, it's a when. Just because the dog is never out without a leash, means nothing. It could pull the leash right out of whatever idiot is walking it's hands. Hopefully then it'll turn on them, not one of us innocent people. It could easily break the windows and come through. The front door is mostly glass with a very old wooden frame. What's to stop it from coming out that way? That's why we don't walk by the front, and I carry the knife and pepper spray when we walk by the side. That's why I'm recording, reporting and contacting that landlord. I signed a lease, I'm here until next January. I'll move for our safety and because our building is pet free and I miss having a dog or cat. I left an abusive relationship only to land in another hell. I had no idea this monster lived down the street, it was the worst winter on record and walking around to make sure there were no dangerous dogs wasn't feasible at the time.

Anonymous said...

I watched the vid of the hero cat and was of course authoritatively assured in the comments section that the squat, shorthaired, barrelbodied, rattailed, yellowish creature attacking without warning,
was a lab/chow cross. Always so eager, aren't they, to "educate" us.
Fuckass buffoons.

Anonymous said...

From anon 2:47,

Rumpelstiltskin, please read my comment more carefully.
I know my writing is as tangled as a heap of straw, but truly, nobody despises Pits and their wardens more than I do. Peace!

Anonymous said...

Heard on "The Incredible Dr Pol" as he looks down at a sedated, porcupine-quill decorated pit bull:
"All muscle and no brains"
Same show, a client whose pit had been lunging at pets in the waiting room, left and was shown driving away, the dog half-hanging out the fully open truck window. In farm country.Despicable.Enraging.

Packhorse said...

I'm so glad the cat saved her friend from that nasty gripper without getting killed herself.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

Anon @7:48AM Says,

"I know my writing is as tangled as a heap of straw, but truly, nobody despises Pits and their wardens more than I do. Peace!"


Anonymous said...

The attacking dog is still alive. It's under observation. The owners were the ones who called 911, at least they got that right. I've heard they asked for it to be pts, if so that's another thing they're doing right. There is a possibility they could get it back, if they could rehab it. I hope they don't. They made a terrible and stupid mistake and while they can't undo it, at least they can do the right thing.

I've been following facebook comments all day on this case. People disgust me, from asking if the child's ever taunted the dog, to one person claiming it was provoked. The bike tires, you see, they were making noise and the dog was going for them. I guess Jeremy's leg happened to be in the way. I don't care if the child taunted the dog, or if it was supposed to be a guard dag, if that was my son, it'd be a DEAD dog. Ok, even as a dog lover, who doesn't always have a problem with pit bulls, you guys are right. The world is full of nutters. Since we can't change their way of thinking, we need to sterilize them and their dogs. I wouldn't want one of my children getting with the child of these people. Does anybody?

I keep reading lab/chow mix, but read in one comment, the owners said it's a pit mix. I know labs were hunting dogs once upon a time, but I doubt they developed the stealth attack of a pit. I've dealt with vicious chows, every single one barked and snarled, none came out of nowhere silently. I'm voting for pit, maybe with some chow in it.

Anonymous said...

I was quoting lab/chow out of the story link I posted. Then I said 'hmmmm'. 'Lab' is one thing some nutters try to claim their 'pets' actually are (I'm not saying the owners said this though that is what the article claimed). Now, THIS dog is a mixed up bunch of stuff. IMO, its dominant trait is pit. Lab and chow might be in it somewhere IDK.

The kid didn't even see the dog FFS. People are so insane.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:42, I understand. I've seen lab/ mix all day

They're ruining labs. I have a sister who has a true lab mix. Marley is part yellow lab and part great Pyrenees. She's a very sweet and gentle dog, though she was a destructive puppy. My sister has no kids, but Marley loves to be around the family kids. She eats the attention up. Her best friend is another sister's shit-zu mix. Watching them play is so cute. I grew up with all kinds of golden, yellow, and black labs in the neighborhood. Nobody feared them, and they were always following their kids to everybody's house. I think I'm going to miss the days when lab mix didn't mean dangerous mauler dog mix. My own kids used to go to my mom and dad's neighbor's to play with their goldens. They were part of a rescue and God those dogs and my kids loved each other. There was a huge black lab mix down the road, we called him freight train because even his walk was loud. He was another big baby. Now lab mix is code for bully something.
Why destroy another breed's good name? A breed that really does have a long documented history of being good with people of all ages.

RSM said...

"Why destroy another breed's good name? A breed that really does have a long documented history of being good with people of all ages."

Making people think all dogs do the things pits do is the name of the game. Nutters and their accomplices love to throw other dogs under the bus to make their maulers look better.

I have a vet tech- and its ALWAYS a vet tech- that is arguing with me on my FB. I said the dog in that video must be part pit, because of the way it attacks. I said normal dogs don't do that. Of course, she trotted out the "all dogs can attack" crap.

But no, that is not true! Other dogs don't come up out of nowhere like that and go straight for the kill without warning. If all other breeds attacked like pits, we wouldn't have as many pet dogs as we do people!

She said it couldn't be a pit, blah, blah, blah. And used this as an excuse to show other breeds bite, as if that lessens the number of deadly pit attacks.

They can call it whatever they want, but it attacks like a PIT does. Just because the nose is pointy doesn't mean it's not pit or part pit. All it takes is a bit of pit blood to ruin a dog.

I really hate when others assume I am ignorant of dogs, just because I don't buy their pit fantasy garbage. They say I shouldn't go on my experience of being attacked, but they turn around and use their personal experience to make their claims.

tropical storms said...

The dogmen I knew back in the day were opposed to letting the general public have bulldogs because they were not sufficiently responsible. They were particularly concerned about people allowing the dogs to cross with other breeds. They considered these cross bred dogs to be more dangerous to humans than either of the parent breeds.

Anonymous said...

Tropical Storms, that is terrifying.

The Nutters are so irresponsible, none of their dogs are fixed or properly contained (owners of bulldogs whose dogs are fixed and/or contained are not necessarily nutters... or at least not the kind I'm talking about).

They don't understand... All of these different dogs roaming around that AREN'T pits also have a breed history. That breed history was created with care to make them SAFE and RELIABLE. Meanwhile, just as much care went into making bulldogs dead game.

They think dog breeds are analogous to human races. Basically, they are over dramatic morons. I don't blame the dogmen for not wanting these people to have bulldogs.

The dogmen have to live in the world as well and don't want to get attacked by crazed bulldogs that are owned by some idiot who can't keep track of them.

Attacks are happening are an even more rapid pace. The nutters are dug in with their delusions. What they want to be true is more important to them than the actual truth no matter if its teeth and jaws are right in their faces.

Also, about crossbreeding...

A lot of dogs like labs are useful for hunting. Pit bulls are not. If anyone hunts and uses a dog (or dogs since different breeds have different specialties), they would not want to trade those carefully bred abilities for a mean old bulldog.

Some of these breeds used for hunting are very sweet around people. They are used to assuming humans are in charge. So, if one wanders into your yard, you can tell it to go on home and.. well,it might not go home, but it WILL NOT haul off and attack. It will probably just lope off to who knows where. maybe even its home.

I have a friend with a lab (a real lab). It is so cute and sweet.

Anonymous said...

RSM, I do believe all dogs can bite. Most choose not to. That's not a bite, on Jeremy, it's an all out attack. Very few dogs choose to do that, even sick or injured dogs might bite but rarely try to maul you. I think it's a pit mix. Like I said, I was even almost attacked by a chow and it barked the whole time. Normal dogs warn you, always.

Tropical Storms, that makes perfect sense. If you cross a fighting dog with a hunting breed you get a "lab mix" that's smart, strong and can stalk anything and because of the pit dna go off without warning.

Anon 4:42, the labs that used to follow their kids to my house were hunting dogs. My daughter's beagle mix is part lab. She does bark at people but it's because she wants them to come meet her. She's the one who lived with rabbits, cats, a bird, hamster and gerbil. She's never hurt anything despite being a crossbreed of two hunting dogs. You're right that they might not listen and go home right away, but they're not likely to ever hurt you or your children. They know their place and while I've met a few of both breeds that were a little reserved, I have yet to meet a scary one.

Totally off topic, there's a guy on our local humane society page looking for a home for pit mix. The cross is a Chihuahua. My thoughts are 1. That's one brave chi. 2. If that dog is mean, it's going to be awful. Chi's can be nasty and very short tempered.

So, what kind of dogs are good family pets, adapt to having any kids around, and can defend themselves if a bully comes at them? That's the dog I want.

Mom in Eugene said...

"So, what kind of dogs are good family pets, adapt to having any kids around, and can defend themselves if a bully comes at them? That's the dog I want."

Pretty much the only dogs that have a shot at defending a bully attack, without dying, or being a danger to your kids, are livestock guardians. A great Pyrenees would fit the bill.
BUT they are enormous, and are working dogs. If you don't have 20 acre as or more, plus a job for them, you will have one enormous, destructive, stressed out, dog. It is pretty cruel to keep them like a normal house pet.

The problem is that any dog that can out fight a pit, is likely to be deadly to people and pets. I am sure a Presa, Cane Corso, or Bull Mastiff can defend themselves, Akita and Rotties have been known to be able to best a pit.

But none of these are safe with kids, other pets, and all can be a menace to the neighborhood if ever loose. I have no idea if they maul their owners and their families like pits do, because thankfully, all but Rotties are not common pets.

I consider all of these, with the possible exception of some Akita, lion tamer dogs. They are impressive animals, but belong in zoos. I don't want to live next to them.

Best you can do is get an awesome dog, and hope they get lucky if attacked. Even a chi may defend your kids, they just may not live to do it twice.

Dick Johnson said...

@Mom In Eugene 10:12 -

I agree with your observations for the most part. As it turns out I've been thinking that an Akita or Great Pyrenees would be the best compromise. The GPs are working dogs as you say, but there is a variation of work ethic. Some of them seem to be couch potatoes, and indeed that's the natural state when they are not in defense mode. My reservations with them have to do with the fact that they are barkers and tend to be nocturnal.

Akitas on the other hand are quite, and adopt well to a couch potato existence. They don't need very much exercise. As far as being safe around children, I don't think they are the danger some make then out to be. They can be rather nasty to strangers who invade their space, but from everything I'm hearing from Akita owners with children, they are fine with the children that they are raised with.

Of course, everything is relative, and an Akita around children would certainly merit more supervision than a stuffed toy would, but I find it significant that, with all the Akita owners with children, we're just not seeing the sort of weekly tragedies that we see with pit bull type dogs.

Jake said...

Speaking of suitable companion dogs, I find this interesting:

Alaskan Noble Companion Dog

Anonymous said...

@Mom in Eugene, I'm not willing to switch another fighting dog for a pit, even though they can hold their own. The closest I'd come to a pit is bull terrier or boxer, but they both have to be watched around other animals. I'd lean more towards the boxer, if I can find a house to rent with a fenced back yard. Then it can be played with outside to tone down the energy. A bull terrier's strength might make them less than ideal for a single mother and a six year old. Holding one back if it did want to chase a smaller dog or cat would be very difficult. Actually I'd love a lab/beagle mix like my daughter's. She's by far the best dog I've ever known. She doesn't jump on people but has never met anyone she didn't like. The beagle mellowed out the hyper tendencies of the lab.

@Dick, Akitas can be good around kids. As a teen one neighbor took in one that had been dumped. She was nice enough, but did protect her yard. That meant, you called before you came over, or she would hold you at bay until they called her. She didn't bite, she just stepped in front of you and stopped. My sister's lab/G.P. mix only barks if something funny is up. She's very quiet, and yes the combo makes an awesome kid dog. Actually she's a great dog all around. My sister took in a cat two months ago and Marley doesn't mind at all. She's been a therapy dog, until my sister's health got worse and she loved her job. She did chew things up as a puppy, shoes, sunglasses, remotes, and my favorite, a feather pillow. My sister has pictures and it looks like somebody murdered a chicken, but left only the feathers in her back yard. She even has a cute way of asking to be petted. She sits down in front of you and waves with her paw. Again, the strength is a bit of a deterrent for me, if a dog that size wanted to pull the leash out of my hands, it would. I have seven months on my lease, so I will figure it out. It is mostly thanks to this blog and the others linked to it, that I have learned despite the pits I lived with, they will never be a dog for my family. Thank you for that, and know you have made a difference for at least one mom and little boy.

Anonymous said...

IDK can an Akita fight a bull dog?

Also, be VERY, VERY careful getting an Akita. Dog fighters are using them (against one another) for variety. So, get one from a breeder you are VERY sure has been breeding Akita for a long time and does not want to fight them.

ANY breed that was bred for fighting can be turned back to its initial purpose and corrupted. All they have to do is line breed them like they have done bulldogs since the dogmen lost control of them. That makes mean, stupid, unsound dogs. I do not think this has happened on a large scale to Akita YET, but I would just be careful with them.

Some one here mentioned that an Akita killed a Rottweiler (the rot had gone nuts and was attacking the owner, so the Akita killing it was a good thing), so they are they can be hardcore. Being able to kill a rottie probably does mean that an Akita has a decent chance against a bulldog.

Back to the little boy riding his bicycle... any dog that cannot stand the sound of a TINY bike's tires needs to be in a fucking zoo. That is NOT A DOMESTICATED ANIMAL. If it lives in suburbia, guess fucking what, kids are going to be riding bikes and people are going to be outside watering plants (what the boy's mom was doing). Normal (a.k.a., non-insane) dogs learn to deal. Dogs have keen hearing, so a lot of noise humans make they notice, but they learn AS PUPPIES what is of concern and what is not.

I think the cat knew about that foul dog just as the dog that saved my mother and me knew about the bulldog down the street. That is the key, really. The animal saving you has to know this is a dire situation and not to let the bulldog get a grip. Notice the cat ran in, smacked the bulldog, then moved and started chasing it off. The dog that saved me weighed more than the bulldog, so he ran, leapt through the air, and shoved the bulldog onto his back and held him down. BOTH animals knew not to let the bulldog get its teeth in them.

I wonder if you could teach a dog about bulldogs by letting them have a "playdate" when both dogs are puppies (so the bulldog can't kill the normal dog due to only having puppy teeth)? Unless you get a BIG dog like these livestock guardians (they can kill a bulldog pretty fast), then another animal will need some knowledge of what they're facing.

Anonymous said...

It is important to give a working dog some kind of job. My sister had a husky (it died of old age) and the dog found her own job.. but it made her very happy.

The husky needed a TON of exercise, so more than one person walked it. Well, one of the people had some disabilities. The husky kind of appointed itself a semi-service dog for that person. (My sister never tried to fake a service dog claim or take the dog anywhere dogs were not already allowed... just to be clear, no obnoxious behavior resulted from this). She behaved totally different when walking with that person. I think she thought SHE was exercising the person rather than the other way around. LOL, well, it gave a working dog a job and so I present this as an idea for SOME breeds.

Anonymous said...

Two pit bulls have killed a Vietnam Vet.

There is also a story on the same site about a pit bull mauling a two year old boy. One TV station apologized to pibble lovers, but didn't apologize for characterizing the boy's injuries as needing "a couple of stitches". Someone posted a photo, he got a LOT of stitches. A lot.

Anonymous said...

The pit was tied to a fence. Like something so simple stops them. Poor little boy. After all the comments on the cat saving the boy video on facebook, I'm not even going to read apologies to pit lovers. It's sickening, that's all. (Waiting for save this dog emails from Is it even possible the nutters realize saving Mickey was worse for him than putting him down would have been? (I hope so, I'm not into saving anything that mauls)

Anonymous said...

I think every fucking person who wants to save a dog that has severely mauled/killed a human needs to spend some quality time with that animal.

Man biters were never culled; Honeybunch, Zebo, Chinaman.. champions are NOT CULLED!

They said, "educate yourself". Well, I did. The more I have, the more I want to KILL THESE DOGS.

I'm sorry if people love them. They are unstable as fuck. They were dangerous enough when halfway sane (if cold hearted about animals) people had them. Now that a bunch of IDIOTS are breeding them left and right any old way... the dogs are crazy as hell.

Nutters, if you love your pibble: CONTAIN IT. Do what you have to do. I am a mild mannered person, but I do not want anyone I love mauled to death by your mother fucking pet. That is so wrong. Your dogs are making me hate dogs in general. Congratulations. I have to spend time around good, sweet dogs to get my perspective back that all dogs are not crazy, purpose-bred killing machines.

They are killing grown men now. A little child is a horrible tragedy, but it is possible to understand how such a small child could be easily hurt and have no chance of fighting free. BUT AN ADULT? A COMBAT-TRAINED adult? Yes, I know he was in his 60s, but he was in good health. THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

These dogs are NOT WORTH IT. If all dogs are alike, then congratulations nutbars, there are MANY other breeds you can get!

Anonymous said...

A similarity between Bella (was tied to a fence, mauled a 2 year old boy.. not as badly as Kevin, but pretty badly) is that the owners DON'T WANT HER NOW.

Will people please, please listen to the owners? If they don't want the dog after seeing what it did to a kid, then that should tell you something.

It's always worse than it sounds in print.

Anonymous said...

If the owner does not want the dog back after an attack then put it down! Actually editing before I post, if it attacks and it's not honestly defending it's owner put it down. In honest defense of an owner, or it's family member, I can forgive a dog for biting, even a pit. The lab/GP mix my sister owns would give her life to defend her. Since she's got the loyalty of a lab and the strength of a big herding dog, she could possibly kill someone. Not that she knows her strength, if it weren't for pit bulls in that neighborhood, she would walk on a leash with my six year old. He does walk her in the fenced in back yard, and she never pulls, never tries to take advantage of being bigger. She just likes being walked, even in her own yard, and they're always supervised, when he's doing it.
If the victim, or victim's relative or owner (after all if pits have "rights" why shouldn't victim animals?) want it put down then do it. I really can not remember any of the loose dogs in farm country attacking children and other pets. I believe the difference was the simple fact, none of the dogs were any type of pit bull. Even the hunting and herding dogs never hurt us or our own dogs and cats. I'm quite sure the farmers where I used to live would've shot a dog if it got after livestock, though, sometimes, if the dog was a good enough hunter they would make exceptions if the dog got a chicken or meat rabbit.

Anonymous said...

I agree, that if the owner doesn't want to see the dog again because it has mauled someone, then the dog needs to be pts. And, in many cases, if it has attacked another animal (there are some variables there as in what happened to the other animal and what was going on at the time, etc.), then that dog is out of hand.

The thing is, a truly obedient dog, even if it is protecting its owner will still listen to its owner. So, if the owner calls the dog off (say the owner has a gun or the police have arrived, whatever), the dog WILL listen and, if possible, break off the attack. Many dogs might just corner a person rather than severely mauling the person because they aren't into it like pit bulls can get.

Now, who knows what happened with this dog Bella. Maybe she just saw the kid out of the corner of her eye and automatically reacted. But, whatever the case, she did severe damage to this child. She is dangerous. This needs to be her last mauling. We can't read her mind and know whether or not she might do this or worse again. We don't even know why she did it. It could be what I described above (the nicest spin on things for Bella) or it could be she has been just dying to attack someone and decided to start with a smaller human.

This is why dogs get put down after an attack. It's not revenge (usually), it is because no one is sure if the dog is at all safe at this point.

Anonymous said...

Understood anon 10:28
As for my sister's dog, she's so friendly the garbage men bring her treats. They always stop to pet her above the fence. The only time I've ever seen even close to a negative reaction out of her, was when my great nephew kept pulling handfuls of fur out of her side Christmas day. Like a normal dog, her body language let us know she was uncomfortable. She raised her lip once, that's when I smacked the boy's hands. I'd already pulled him away and told him no three times. His mother just laughed and said, "he's just being a baby". He's almost two, and should have been taught better before then. After I smacked him she got mad. I told her to keep him off of the dog or I'd do it again. That niece now has a pit bull. If it doesn't attack her kids I'll be surprised. She's posted pictures already of her boys pulling the dog's ears and trying to ride it. I've pleaded with her to rehome the dog, I don't want to attend a child's funeral, especially not my family members.

Marley would listen to my sister, she always does, but my sister is a double lung transplant and a heart attack survivor. If someone overpowered her, the dog would die for her. She doesn't act overly protective or possessive of my sister, but she is very bonded with her. Her size should be enough to stop anyone thinking of intruding. I was there when some strange guy came knocking one night and the bark she had for him was entirely different from the happy bark through the window when people she knows are coming. Since she never barks at strangers otherwise, it leads me to believe she sensed something very wrong about that man. The first time she meets people she doesn't even bark. Only once she knows you and is happy to see you coming. Trust me, when the religious groups come to the door, she alerts you by looking at the door and wagging her tail. That one bark, at a guy with a very fishy story, was defensive and I've never heard it before or since.

Anonymous said...

I think what you described with the GP barking was for the benefit of the guy at the door. This is what normal dogs do, try to intimidate the other person into retreating. So, yeah, she probably put as much threat into the bark as she could.

Some people encourage misbehavior with kids and pit bulls because they've been told that pit bulls don't care. I don't know how anyone can know that. Maybe there exists one that doesn't, but many probably do.

But, unlike a regular dog they won't lift their lip or something to let people know they've just about had it (this doesn't mean the GP was about to attack, she might have been about to flounce out of the room who knows... but most dogs have a bunch of things they try first).

So, because a pit bull doesn't growl while a chihuahua will growl, in the nutter's mind that makes the chihuahua more vicious. Meanwhile, one dog can maul an adult human to death (spoiler! it's not the chihuahua).

Of course, I think nutters' little dogs (if they exist and the nutters aren't lying to protect pibble) are probably nervous wrecks because they live with a dog that was purpose bred over centuries to maul a dog to death. I'd be a little snippy too under those circumstances.

On the story about the poor little two year old boy, some nutter snotted that "5 pound lap dogs" have killed people. FFS!!!!!! They will say ANYTHING!

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:45, yes some people encourage their kids to misbehave around pit bulls. Even if she never attacks my great nephews, she might go after another innocent child. I do feel sorry for the pup, despite her breed. I just think it's wrong to force a dog to tolerate that kind of behavior. I used the GP curling her lip as an example of what these boys push a perfectly normal dog to. I don't think she would've hurt the boy, but she was alerting us to her discomfort, which is perfectly acceptable. When my ex's pit growled at my son, she did have a valid reason, and she was good enough to give warning. (even some of them will warn you, but I really think she was an exception rather than the rule when it comes to pits) Him landing either on or very close to her hip and waking her from a sound sleep merited a warning. Her breed didn't matter, dogs only have so many ways to let us know something is wrong, and that's all she was doing. Even a normal non pit would have had a reaction.

I can't read the comments about that poor two year old. After somebody claiming the attack on the four year old was provoked by the sound of his bike tires, I can't handle the stupidity.

Smaller dogs, might snap at kids more often, they're usually scared of the loudness and fast movements. That doesn't make them more dangerous than a pit, the small dog might or might break the skin if they get hold. The pit might break bones, scalp, or kill the child. My niece's mother has a rat terrier/jack russle mix, who has bitten both of the grandchildren. They have pulled her ears and tail to the point where a dog who used to like kids is no longer good with them. Just imagine what they're turning the pit into. The fact that both mom and daughter blame the dog shows you how stupid they are. They gave their cat away because she reached a point where if the boys came near her claws came out. Again, I feel sorry for the puppy they have now, she's going to react one of these days, and it will be ugly. Letting your kids abuse animals, no matter what kind never turns out good for the animal in the end, and in the case of pit bulls, it doesn't end well for people either. I won't set foot in their house, neither will my son. He won't be the victim of that dog's instinct+ the abuse she's enduring at small hands.

Anonymous said...

The one on the bike rescued by his cat was four. The one by the fence was two.

There are so, so many of these attacks...

Sonya Marmeladov said...

@anon 1:59 -

"every working dog needs a job"

Are you kidding me? The "job" of a pit bull is a fucking felony in all 50 states.

Anonymous said...

Sonya, I was talking about a husky NOT A FUCKING PIT BULL.

I am well aware that a pit bull's 'job' is a felony, thank you.

Please follow along better. One person was talking about a Great Pyrenes and I was talking about a husky. Also, a border collie would be a working dog.

A pit bull is a working dog, yes. BUT IT IS ALSO A FIGHTING DOG. I understand this.

I do not appreciate being quoted out of context and accused of supporting MAULERS being given 'jobs' MAULING because I never said any such thing ever in my life.

I know there are a lot of anonymous posters. I am sorry if that is confusing. But, it is rude to quote out of context and make accusations that a person HERE supports dog fighting.

Anonymous said...

BTW, the husky I am talking about is not the same husky that killed a rabbit or a cat or both. The husky I'm talking about found a 'job' (not officially) working with a disabled person.

It helped calm her down.

Working dogs will FIND A JOB for themselves if they possibly can. If the dog is a border collie then the job probably will be trying to herd anything around to herd.

If the job is a pit bull, the 'job' it assigns itself might be killing a dog or a human or anything else. So, I guess Sonya basically accusing me of supporting dog fighting has brought that out clearly. A pit bull is a working dog. If dog fighting is illegal (and it is a felony), then the pit bull will not be completely content in its role as a pet and it will FIND A JOB.

This is why, if someone wants a working dog they better be able to contend with the natural drive the dog has to work. If the dog's "work" is something acceptable to the public, then the dog will not really cause any major problems even if it goes out and finds its own job.

Mom in Eugene said...

I think the working dog comment was intended for the comment about Great Pyr's.

You really should not have a GP without 20 acres and a job for it. They are serious working dogs. Wonderful animals, but just not fit for a backyard and normal suburban life. If you found one that was a crapy worker, then maybe, but you cannot tell that for sure when they are tiny.

I would NEVER, EVER, get an Akita with small kids. They can be dangerous, and NO good breeder will sell you one with small kids in the house. If one will sell you an Akita knowing this, you should avoid them like the plague. I like them, and they aren't like pits as far as unprovoked attacks out of nowhere, but they are totally not suitable for kids.

I think the reason Akita's stats are OK is because they are few in numbers, and few idiots own them. They breeders do a good job educating people and keeping them out of the hands of idiots and homes that aren't appropriate. If they were all over like pits, I think they would have a trail of bodies as well (fewer than pits, but more than they do now).

I would skip the boxer too. They were bred from 1/3 pit, and while not really dangerous now, they still kill every year or so. IMO, why take the chance when a lab or golden (etc) exists. It's not like a Boxer can take on a mauler anyway.

My opinion only- Get the lab you mentioned. The best thing you can do is get a dog that will put itself in danger to save your kid. A good lab is loyal, and will do this for you, and will be little danger to your family (don't get a mix from a rescue, stick to a breeder).

Don't get an aggressive breed (Akita, ANYTHING with BULL in its name) in hopes it will survive a pit attack. It is not worth adding risk, to reduce risk, KWIM?


Anonymous said...

Mom in Eugene, I agree the GP isn't a suburban dog. My sister had a husky. She had to really devote herself to exercising her dog. She managed to do it, but after it got old and died she said she wouldn't get another one.

I could see how a big retriever might work out for the mom who wants one. Maybe they could get exercised by playing fetch for hours.

I have heard of a lab that stood up to a pit bull. The lab retrieved the mutant's head. LOL. I mean, the mutant was fine, but not up to mauling that day.

I am not a mom. I have a bunny. He stays inside the house.

I think I got confused.

uh oh

Sorry, Sonya.

Anonymous said...

Mom in Eugene, if I can find a house with a fenced yard, it will be a lab of some type, most likely. They really are great, loyal, wonderful companions. If it's an apartment, I'm leaning mostly towards a beagle or basset with lots of on leash walks. Since they have a high drive to please their master, they have a lot of the same qualities as a lab, only smaller. I know that I want a younger dog, but would prefer a 2-3 year old so some of the puppiness is gone. My son will be seven and might not like a puppy chewing his things up (which, even with crate training, seems to happen at least once) and since puppies will chew on fingers and toes, he wouldn't enjoy that. I agree that all working dogs need a job, and the hunters, even in apartments can be given the job of tracking. Hide toys and treats, and let them find them, it helps cut down on the behaviors that otherwise can be a problem. I still like the shit-Tzu as a toy breed, but they seem to have a large target on their back for maulers. I wouldn't want that to happen to our dog, and we have a lot of bully dogs in this town. As for the boxers, they're very high energy, and I wonder how many of the attacks are actually young dogs who don't realize their strength with younger or elderly people. I've met so many of them, and they always seem sweet, but even if they've been broken of jumping on you to greet you, they run to meet you. I think if you trained both of those things out of them, you'd have a perfectly safe dog. Raising them with other animals, cuts way down on the prey drive. A boxer raised with smaller dogs or cats, will play with them, but doesn't seem inclined to chasing them to death. One not raised with other pets, will chase them over hell and high water. I plan o volunteer with our humane society this summer and have my son help. We won't deal with the pits they get in, but help with the other dogs and cats. That will give us a better idea of what the best fit will be for us when the time comes. They get lots of kittens who need love, and my son is suited for petting kittens, and playing with puppies who don't chew on him. I'm patient with animals and good with shy dogs who need some extra time.

On my sister's lab/GP mix, she does walk the fence and look out for trouble. She protects her pack of people and other pets. I'm sure that she would be happy on a large farm but she's a foster failure. She was found wandering the streets and my sister worked with a GP rescue. After eight months they'd finally found a possible home for her, but my sister and her had bonded. I guess cleaning up a "feather pillow murder" makes you fall in love. Being allowed to patrol a border, makes her happy even if it's not a large one. I know she loved the nursing home and hospital visits, but she gets plenty of attention at home. She has a poodle who lives with her, and they play together just fine. He's also created his own job, he likes for you to hide things so he can find them and bring them to you for praise. To my son, that's playing with him, to the dog, it's his job. That's the best of both worlds.

Anonymous said...

I agree... it is important to find a safe job for the dog (a normal dog, not a mauler since OBVIOUSLY none of us want a pit bull type dog). Some dogs will patrol and it makes them happy. They will look at passerbys, but not chase or give more than one or two mild barks.

I saw a little dog patrolling the other day. It was hilarious. IDK what he was other than yellow. He was very small, maybe around ten pounds. A girl walked down the street and he barked at her, but did not move from his position (not that he could've hurt her, but he didn't try). She kept going where she was going and after he decided she wasn't coming into his yard, he went back to marching up and down.

Anonymous said...

I saw a rare sight in the park today. A young man with a pit bull. Obviously that's not the unusual part. The dog was muzzled (the first time I've ever seen a pit bull muzzled), short leashed, and under control at all times. He did have a retractable leash that he put the dog on, away from people and other animals, and would tell the dog to stay at the top of a hill, then let it run to him. He never let go of that leash either. He seemed to be a better pet owner than at least ten other people with small dogs. They were dropping leashes, or letting them pull retractable ones all the way out. Taking them through the very crowded playgrounds, letting them get in the bigger dogs faces and generally risking everyone's safety. One person got their dog close to the pit, who was sitting with his owner while his son played. This little dog was right under the swings as well, all of which were full of kids. Not only could the little dog have been kicked by a kid, or jumped on, it was growling at the pit. The pit clearly didn't like it, he (by the way, he was fixed, like I said, as responsible of pit owner as I've ever seen) stiffened his body, growled back and was showing "moon eyes". The small dog owner thought it was funny. The pit owner asked him twice to please move his dog as it was making the pit uncomfortable, after the second time the pit owner collected his son and left the park. To the pit and owner's credit, it never paid attention to the other dogs, only the one that got in it's face, and it obeyed it's owner. At least that owner is making the effort to be a good pit owner. I see a ton of them at our parks who aren't muzzled and are on retractable leashes. Some idiot dropped the leash a few weeks ago. Oh she won't go anywhere or hurt anybody, is what the idiot told me. I offered to call the police to settle it since so many kids were there and the owner picked up the leash and left. I'm a bit of a bitch especially when it comes to the safety of my son or other kids, and I don't back down.

Anonymous said...

If I had a pit bull and I loved it, I would do exactly as that man did. Pits don't like certain things. The person with the small dog ought to have removed it. The dog was scared of the pit and wanted to drive it away. But, if the man hadn't taken the pit bull away, it eventually would have attacked. They do not like being growled at by any dog, ever.

The muzzle protects the pit bull, too. It makes it way less likely it can hurt anyone or thing in a serious enough manner to make it need to be pts. If an owner loves their pit bull, then a muzzle is logical. A capable person on the lead is logical. Obedience training is logical. This all makes it way less likely the pit bull will ever seriously harm anyone or thing.

Instead of arguing with us, more pit bull owners should be like that man. IF their dogs stop killing people and animals, then I wouldn't really care other people want to take on the heavy responsibility of owning them.

I've seen a few fierce looking dogs muzzled and under control. It just helps so much. I DON'T recall what kind of dogs. I just kept on going my way and did not look closely at them as I didn't want them looking at me. There were two of them, they were looking around at people but that's all.

Anonymous said...

every time I scroll down this thread and see Mickey getting a kiss (which he doesn't care about) while Kevin's injuries look so painful... it's just not fair.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:12, that's it exactly. I was not bothered by that pit. While it clearly did not like the small dog in it's face, it paid no mind at all to the other dogs around. The fact that it was muzzled and well under control, even in a crowded park, points to a somewhat responsible and caring owner. Everything about the dog said the owner loved him enough to take all the right steps. I hope since the owner is doing everything right in public, he got a really good pit who never snaps and turns on anybody. His son played with mine for quite a while and was a very sweet, well behaved boy. They were there for at least an hour before the small dog came along. I have no idea how many people and dogs that pit passed and didn't even look at them, unless people came up to it. Then it greeted people in a normal dog's manner, that was all. The fact that he wasn't a jerk, and didn't push his weight around with the dog says a lot, instead of letting his dog get more upset he left. I would've been upset had it been my dog as well. They didn't help themselves by yelling at kids for almost stepping on the dog, if it had been on a normal leash, it would've been much safer. I understand the small dog was scared, but it shouldn't have been in the middle of a busy playground. Today was the first really nice warm day in a week, everybody was there with kids. They were just there with the dog, I would've picked a less crowded place with a small dog.

Mickey should have been put down, Who's footing the bill for his salvation?

tropical storms said...

The attacking bulldog run off by the family cats is getting a lot of attention on LinkedIn. I had the weight in with my opinion that any dog off its property who attacks a person or another domestic animal needs to be euthanized. The conversation has now been amended to ask if an 8 months old "puppy" should be euthanized. I had to ask what the fuck they thought this puppy would be like at 18 months. So far no response.

Anonymous said...

Tropical Storms, I'm still waiting on the idiots to scream about saving that dog. I have seen "now that poor puppy will pay with it's life". Do these people have kids? Nieces, nephews, grandkids? Were they kids at one time or are they aliens? That dog isn't a "poor puppy", the bike tires aren't "provocation". That dog is a menace, and proved it's dangerous to CHILDREN. I'm a mom, I lived with pit bulls who's owner attacked me, but they never did, put that dog down, don't let it get bigger and more dangerous. There is no saving that dog.

Anonymous said...

Tropical Storms, if the 'puppy' was 18 months old then the cat couldn't have saved the boy though it might have died trying. The mother was nearby, so MAYBE she could have.. but the dog would've hurt the boy more.

Also, how loud do these insane people think the tires on that TINY bike could be? I could see a dog being curious, sure. But attacking? That is not why that dog attacked. Maybe it had been dreaming of attacking the boy for weeks, these people don't know. No one knows what it was thinking.

But, it's time for it to be pts. Maybe its owners will be more careful (and get a better pet) next time. They are lucky the little boy wasn't hurt worse. They are lucky the boy had a cat.

Anonymous said...


Now and then there is a pit bull that is o.k. I read about a little 12 year old girl who said her pit bull was her only friend. I hope for her sake it is ice cold and its heritage never comes out. But, it will be a miracle if that happens since in is just one year old.

This doesn't mean I support pit bulls. I DON'T. But, fact is, they exist. People have them and now and then it turns out all right. More often than we think it doesn't, but some of the pit bull owners don't care and lie about it. (sigh.) These fucking dogs...

tropical storms said...

The truth is that a genetically cold dog is probably the most harmless dog you could get. They won't even defend themselves when attacked, they either roll up in a ball or flatten themselves out on the carpet. I can't say they're especially smart, bulldogs aren't a smart breed, but they are 100% safe to keep.

Anonymous said...

Nutters all think their dogs are geniuses. It's funny.

Anonymous said...

What is a "cold" dog? Bing isn't helping me find the answer. When talking about bulldogs, I'm going to assume if you're being serious you mean English bulldogs, who are dumb as dirt but the modern version isn't anything like the ones that used to fight.

tropical storms said...

Cold is a term from the sporting fancy. It means a dog or bitch who has no prey drive and is incapable of ever developing one. I'm referencing American (Pit) Bull-Terriers, fighting dogs bred from battle stock intended for the dogpit. I don't think any of the bulldog breeds are particularly smart dogs. Your lack of familiarity with the terminology indicates to me you've not followed Craven for an extended period of time. I believe there's a glossary of terminology somewhere in the archives. Any time you read my reference to bulldogs I mean combat dogs unless I state bulldog breeds which to me is all inclusive (American Bulldog, (Pit) Bulldog, Dogo Argentina , etc.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, and I am fairly new to craven. I'll still choose to avoid a pit of any type as a dog for myself and my son, cold or not.
The pit at the park wasn't cold, it just had a very rare owner. It was responding to the dog in it's face. It took a lot of self control for me not to tell the small dog's owners off. They were endangering everyone by letting it get in the pit's face, plus yelling at kids for running and playing was a b.s. move. If you don't want your little dog hurt, don't bring it into the playground of the park. It was an older dog who wanted nothing to do with kids, and since they didn't have any, I don't know why they brought it into the area.

Anonymous said...

I don't know if you can even tell if a dog is cold until it grows up. I'm sure Tropical Storms has a better idea.

Because of nutters constantly lying, many people have no idea that the LAST THING you want to do is let your dog in any way challenge a pit bull. ANY PIT BULL. Better safe than sorry. People need to know this. The person with the small dog probably just thought it was funny and did not realize that her dog was truly afraid. So, she was being mean to both dogs, the man, and his child without even knowing it.

There are some big dogs a little dog can growl at that won't care, but a pit bull is not such a dog. Nutters need to stop spreading their lies and IF THESE DOGS MUST BE AMONG US let the truth about them come out.. it would keep everyone safer.

I support some kind of BSL where pit bulls really have to be carefully managed if they can exist. It is the only way.

There are some people who can and will be responsible. Which means always remembering what this dog really is... hence, muzzling them a lot of time. There are muzzles that allow them to drink water if they get thirsty and many are padded on the inside so as not to hurt the dog.

However, such people are excessively, excessively rare given the number of pit bull related fatalities and maulings. If people do not start getting realistic about bulldogs, then we will HAVE to institute measures against all dogs. I've even seen muzzles for toy breeds; I think they're for going to the vet, but they exist.

I hate seeing people who do not contain their grippers because, if that is their pet that they love (which in a lot of cases, it's not), why would they want to take a chance it could do something that causes it to be pts?

Now, some of these pit bull on dog attacks that take place, I think the pit bull's owner sicced the pit bull on the other dog. They're training the dog. Some of the pit bull on human cases could be the same for all we know.

If the victim dies, who is to know what they saw or heard just before they were attacked? (This would be more attacks on adults or older/bigger children.. little children really offer no challenge at all to a pit bull dog). Some of the nutters are insane.

Some dude was ROBBED the other day by someone who sicced his mutant on the man. And there was a woman whose husband was in an argument with her husband and he sicced his pit bull on her WHILE he was fighting the husband. In these cases, I would like to throw the owner in jail for what they did plus animal cruelty (because they made their dog do something that got it executed.

I feel sorry for THOSE dogs as they were obeying their owners and they don't know what he is doing is wrong. Not sorry enough to let them live, but maybe AC can be really kind to them before they get pts.

Oh, and I have to say, I do agree it would be better not to bring a dog to a playground especially if the person has no children. I have no children and no dog, and I have zero interest in going to a playground.. I mean, WTF? Maybe if it was empty and had swings an adult could use, but otherwise? What on Earth would I do there?

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:47. I agree, this pit must be loved because the owner cared enough to take precautions. If we must live with them, I'd rather they have owners like that. I know a park isn't the best place to bring one, but I understand on a nice day wanting to bring a pet to enjoy the weather while your child plays. I hate retractable leashes for any dog. I saw the purpose of the pit owners, it was to play with him, far away from people and other animals. When around people and the other animals he was short leashed. I saw four other dogs on regular leashes out of I think 15. One was a lab, the other 3 were doxie's. The rest on retractable leashes were small dogs.

Yes when someone sics a pit, or any dog on a person or another animal they should be charged with cruelty. Again the one exception is siccing a dog on an intruder who is a threat. Maybe those dogs don't deserve to be pts, not if they listen to the owner and back off once the threat is under control.

One more thing about the park in general. It's a ten acre park with plenty of open space, if you want to bring a dog, fine as long as you clean up after it. Brining it to the playground, unless you have kids is just stupid. The dog wasn't just stressed by the pit, all of the kids made it nervous too. It's cruel to hang out in a playground while your dog cowers in fear of the noise around it. I'm surprised nobody was bitten, because that dog was so overwhelmed. I guess that's why they upset more than the pit owner, his dog handled the crowd and noise just fine, he calmly watched the action and let people approach him. He paid no real attention to kids running by, kids throwing themselves on the ground, after being "shot" by nerf guns, kids screaming as they went down slides (aren't all of those things used as excuses by nutters when their dog attacks?).

Packhorse said...

Mom in Eugene,
I disagree that a breeder, and never a rescue, is the only good place to get a lab or other safe breed dog. Not every shelter and rescue are overrun with pits, especially in the rural areas. I got my wonderful Labrador / Golden cross from a rural rescue group. There are great beagles, labs, collies and other normal dogs who need a good home out there.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

a purebred dog rescue is a good way to go. they also have mixes of their dog of choice.

Anonymous said...

Many small newspapers do a humane shelter column that shows photos of the dogs that can be adopted. So, you can see for yourself if these are maulers or not (if it is an older pup or a grown dog). Then you can go to where these dogs are and adopt a GOOD dog. I mean, sometimes they have issues, but they are fixable things not "oh, this breed occasionally snacks down on humans of all ages why is that a problem for you" disclaimer that should be on even partial maulers.

Anonymous said...

Every time I scroll down this page and see little Kevin sitting in bed, obviously in pain, holding his little Iron Man toy... I just get so upset. There are people in this world who think he deserved what happened to him because he "invaded Mickey's space". I'm certain that if a big dog like Mickey had barked or growled at Kevin, he would have run to hide behind his babysitter immediately. Have pit bulls so skewed people's idea of dog behavior that there are people who don't realize a dog has MANY ways to get someone to back off?

I read someone screeching that they wished Mickey had KILLED Kevin. Well, he damned near did. Do people really not understand this? Kevin nearly died. Mickey tried to kill him. Another couple of seconds and he would have killed him. Over what? Nothing.

I'm sorry, just every time I see Kevin's picture.. I feel this way.

Unknown said...

wish I could poison that fleabag!!n believe me if I had access I would!! absolutely disgusting that mickey is being funded!! The owners wanted him put down until these freaks of society decided to fund the mauler! why is this allowed?

Anonymous said...

I don't understand how it was allowed. The legal owner of Mickey took him to be pts the same day as Kevin was attacked. At that point, I'm not sure if anyone knew if Kevin would even live.

I think somehow they tricked the owner into signing away his rights to Mickey probably due to the 10-day quarantine. The owner and his girlfriend (Kevin's babysitter) both tried to appeal to decency and have Mickey pts even after the hue and cry of nut cases on FB, but their concerns were brushed aside.

I wonder if the owner even knew until the fireworks began that his wishes in regard to Mickey had not been honored.

From what I've read, that even BEFORE Mickey attacked Kevin or killed the puppy, he wasn't a very friendly dog. You can kind of tell, in the photos of him in his new home... he likes the dog house he got out of the deal, otherwise he seems uninterested in the people fawning all over him (as someone discreetly keeps a FIRM hold on a leash).

Unknown said...

Chey did you read about jogger in. Seattle who tried to joke. the shit out of loose pit owner? loved it! too bad he was arrested! btw where is sweet mickey being kept?curious?

Unknown said...

btw who is that dirty old man kissing Mickey? gross! Alzheimers must be kicking in

Anonymous said...

The last link explains where Mickey is and who the man is... basically, he's in a jail (a human jail) that has been converted into an animal shelter where female inmates work with dogs. That man is 'Sheriff Joe', I think.
But you'll have to see in comments where people still carry on about that fictional bone which they now have Kevin removing from Mickey's mouth. Which only proves how stupid they are as it was unbelievable enough when it was only NEAR Mickey, but how can anyone believe a four year old could get a bone out of a dog's mouth. These idiots all need slapping.

Unknown said...

thanks I will check it out! doesn't matter about bone regardless pit maulings r inexcusable period!! christ I feel like were in a reality of The stepford pits everyone in a trance repeating same stupid shit:it's how it's raised,bad owners, misunderstood, blah ,blah til I wanna stick my fingers in my throat to vomit!!! except there's nothing to wake these clowns up with!!

Unknown said...

n I don't even think a personal mauling would do it they'd just say I was lacing my shoes the wrong way n it stressed Out my poor deranged wiggle but!!

Anonymous said...

Nancy, I know what you mean... it is so bizarre.. when did ugly mauler dogs start being more important than any and all humans?

Some people will find every single way in the world to blame the victim no matter what the circumstances. They'll make stuff up if they have to!

They'll put bones where there are no bones or they'll claim someone was pulling the dogs ears (meanwhile, when not discussing a mauling, they'll promote pibble as a nanny because it doesn't CARE if its ears are pulled!) or they'll claim the dog didn't know someone even though the family says the dogs knew that person very well.

ANYTHING, ANYTHING, ANYTHING to blame the victim. If the victim is a baby, then they blame the parents for not hovering over the baby 24/7 and allowing a dog in the same room even as they themselves post photos of maulers DRAPPED OVER newborns.

Someone once mentioned a 12-year-old girl they knew who was attacked by a pit (IDK the details, she survived though). And a nutter, knowing NOTHING more than I just wrote said, "Sounds like the 12-year-old wasn't minding her own business." WTF?

Someone mentioned throwing all of the nutters and their "pets" onto an island. I wish we could. It could even be a nice island. Leave them there for a couple of years.. then check on them to see how their idyllic life in the land of pibble is going.

Unknown said...

anon I used to own one of those beast my ex pal Dayna (its all in how you raise BS) n after three years harboring it, kept hearing about attacks so I research n found dogsbite n was freaked Out I have small nieces who visit so ended up locking thing in basement when visitors came I researched hundreds of bites on her list. took almost two years was hoping it was BS but no all accurate well xpal took creature n soo relieved I didn't learn hard way!! went to shelter n saved a worthy dog long haired male 4 yr old dachshund that needed 5gs back surgery that previous owner did to him best money I ever spent family loves him to death!! nobody misses the other creature including me I can't tell you what a hatred I have for pits n their owners!!

Unknown said...

nothing worse than a former Nutter!!!! I thank God I'm not one of those lunatics that refute facts!! I'm pissed I didn't research when I entertained taking beast in was to busy researching plastic surgeons n procedures available nonstop until attack stories kept creeping up n x Nutter pals would just say. media is prejudiced blah blah thank God I was suspicios n didn't brush it off!!! n I absolutely am addicted to craven desires best. anti pit blog really grabs the reader personally it should be made into a book!! I love Clint Eastwood humor they project!!

Anonymous said...

Nancy, thank God you are rid of the mutant and now have a sweet, normal dog.

I read all of the stuff people have to do to keep their mutants in line (not that most bother, but still) it is EXHAUSTING. And I don't even mean the exercise the mutant needs.

Interesting you researched some of the info... I have as well. It is an incredibly damning and sad list.

A lot of people who are very gung ho about the mutant have, basically, a puppy. It is almost full size, but still has that puppy personality. I mean a lot of people I see commenting...

Did your dog get weirder as it got older? I feel sorry for them, in a way. But, they're just so unpredictable. They attack people who feed and take care of them or people they don't know.. it's all the same, somehow, to them. Maybe when they go pit, they just see a target and not an individual person or animal.

Unknown said...

well at that time I fell in the gullible women category!! n the pit didn't do anything but I wasn't about to chance it after I read dogsbite no way! I can just see headline on cravens :pit Nutter has plastic surgery only to get mauled by her mutant! no thanks, I would hope though if their was a mauling it would be me n not my family or friends after all I'm the moron who decided to have it!! I'm so thankful for these sites God only knows they can be great then at nine yrs of age boom out of the blue no I'm all about facts always have been

Unknown said...

n for the life of me can't understand y I took Dayna's word n got the pit through her n not bother to research the breed before commiting to the dog ,I research dog food, treats,every ingredient I'm a nut about researching! reason I should of questioned The Dingbats is she paid a total of 4000 dollars to a psychic she met on Craigslist to put spell on married man to fall in love with her(who does that? )now you'd think wow this Guy must be something! not! he has four kids by four different women, can't afford child support ,loaded with tattoos n I mean loaded, can't seem to hold on to a job, him n wife live with his mom n nasty area,n the best part owns three pits!! what a catch he is! n thats y I'm kicking myself for listening to her though when she tried to talk me into getting tattoo I told her to get lost!

Unknown said...
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