Tuesday, September 18, 2012

craven mail bag: branwyne and beagles

Wanted to share this video of the latest rescue from the Beagle Freedom Project...

Note the descriptions of the dogs from the BFP website..

"Our Fourth rescue was our biggest ever! On November 23, 2011, We saved 40 beagles from a laboratory in Spain where they had lived their entire lives and flew them to us to Los Angeles, CA. Many had tattoos not just in one ear, but in both, indicating they had come from more than one laboratory. Many of these angels landed with teeth rotten, bleeding and falling out and tumors. Some had to have surgery – many had to have teeth pulled. They are all doing exceptional now and have all gone into their forever homes!"

Watch these dogs when they let them out of the crates...no socialization, years of torture at human hands, they have never experienced being outside. Not used to the noise, kept in isolation in cages, no training or positive human contact, many in pain from rotten teeth and medical procedures. You can see that the males in the video are intact. When the crates are opened, they are obviously scared, but after a few moments, they appear joyful. Tail wagging, allowing strangers to hold and pet them and handle them, totally fine with the other beagles. This video makes me want to cry........ while humane groups spent thousands of dollars subsidizing and promoting pit bull ownership, the plight of lab beagles goes ignored.

Why all the fuss about the Vick dogs, when this is happening to beagles every day? The rescue was done at the end of November 2011, by January 2012 all the beagles were placed in homes. No extensive "rehab" needed! In many ways, these beagles had it much worse than the Vick dogs, many of whom were young dogs that had not been fought. Yet nary a peep of public outcry, and no attention from the humane groups like HSUS. Pit bulls raised in these conditions would be expected to kill someone when let loose, and attack the other dogs. Why don't we expect this from beagles?

Beagle rescue isn't as "sexy" as pit bull rescue...the types of people who adopt lab beagles aren't looking for bragging rights, or to make a statement about beagles as a breed. They don't have anything to prove, and are not out to save the beagles reputation, because it doesn't need saving. These small, friendly hounds don't attract the types of colorful grifters that excel as reality TV stars, so their cause is eclipsed by the manufactured drama of pit bull rescue.

There are many companies in this country which breed beagles and small hound mixes to sell to medical and cosmetic testing labs. While this fact should horrify dog lovers and humane groups, most seem too busy fretting over things like "pit bull discrimination". The fact that the plight of pit bulls is caused ENTIRELY by the people who own, breed, and claim to love pit bulls...the alleged stewards of the breed....seems lost on most pit bull fans. They prefer the drama of imagining that "haters" are somehow causing millions of pit bulls to be bred, neglected, abused, and dumped.

Pit bull attacks are frequently blamed on the fact that the aggressive pit bull was "abused", lived life on a chain outside, was not "socialized", was not "trained". How, then, do we explain these beagles? How can these sweet tempered hounds go from years of isolation and torture straight into adoptive homes with so little fuss? How on earth can that woman in the video be so fearless as to cuddle and kiss that poor, terrified beagle, right on his face? Shouldn't she expect to get bitten?

Or is it possible that the sweet disposition of these beagles is genetic?




Packhorse said...

I agree. Pit bull advocates who will fight the euthanization of a human-killing pit have nothing to say about the abuse of any other animals in society, including any other breed of dog other than grippers. Where is the coffee table book of rescued lab beagles?

april 29 said...

This last sentence says it all...

"Or is it possible that the sweet disposition of these beagles is genetic?"

The reason Beagles are used for this purpose is the docile nature of the breed, their temperament is part of their DNA. Why is this concept SO difficult for pit bull advocacy to understand?

Or is it just that pit bulls are exempt from the laws of genetics?

Jim Reeve said...

I like how pitter advocates don't believe anything you tell them. They're so closed minded about reality. Imagine if they put their effort towards a good cause.

safer midwifery utah said...

The point of this post is valid, but I do want to clear up that the animal protocols in labs are pretty strict. Unless lack of attention was part of an experiment the animals usually get at least 15 minutes a day with someone as part of protocol.

vintage said...

People always forget Vick had 9 Beagles that were used for baiting and blood tranfusions. They were immediately and quietly absorbed by the Beagle community. Quite the contrast to the Cash Cow approach used by the Pit Grifters...

Over 100 Americans have been killed by Pit Bulls since the Vick raid in 2007.

Anonymous said...

And you know these strict protocols to be enforced how? What is your evidence?

Lab beagle getting a little of his 15 minutes a day with someone.

And another lovely fucking 15 minutes of handling.

Even when handled "humanely" vivisection is indefensible. Either the animal is like us, in which case it is unethical to do the experiment or the animal is unlike us making the tests worthless.

This is the reality of a lab animal, Michael Vick's dogs lived in a fucking spa in comparison. You have to be a psychopath to design and conduct these studies on live animals.

DubV said...

Let's not candy coat anything. The life of a laboratory beagle is pure shit. There might be certain situations where lab testing is justified based upon huge net benefit, but cosmetic is not one of them.

My dog is half beagle, I believe, so this video (which I have not watched yet) will probably cause me to bawl my eyes out for about 5 minutes. I want my sinuses to be okay tonight so I can sleep, so I may have to postpone this viewing.

BB said...

The video is heartbreaking. But what is sadder yet, to me, is that any of the people in it would almost certainly tell us that pits are "just like other dogs" and fully support the very people and organizations we detest -like HSUS - with gusto. Remember Cathy from the Camp Cocker rescue? The one that rescued Stanley the pit bull and then shipped him to British Columbia? Every time a pit kills a cocker I think of her and her "just one dog" video and all of the pit bull adoptions - and cocker spaniel maulings - it promoted.

I don't think the owners, breeders, and lovers of pit bulls are the primary problem at all. I think the primary problem is the humane community that will not acknowledge what pit bulls really are. The owners and lovers of pits are, by definition, either insane or incredibly stupid - in either case they can't be brought to reason nor expected to act rationally without legislated restrictions. The humane community is simply chasing the almighty dollar AND they are the reason that legislation is so frequently blocked or overturned; in my opinion they are far more culpable.

DubV said...

Thanks for this blog post. It is very touching and important for multiple reasons.

S.K.Y. said...

Hi Branwynn,

Great post, and what a happy video. I'm sure the Beagles are all living out a happy retirement now.

In the 1980's, I spent 6 years working for a large pharmaceutical company. Our department had about 20 beagles, and I had occasional contact with them. We gave them meds (at the stage where the meds were already proven safe) and took blood samples to calculate the profile of when the drug got into their bloodstreams and when it was excreted. (This is how doctors know to tell you: "Take 3 a day" or whatever).

The good part is that the animal caretakers in our department were all dog lovers. At least two of them competed in dog shows and field trials. So they were very friendly and treated the dogs kindly. Lab-bred Beagles are bred to be super friendly and tolerant. I remember the caretakers doing blood draws, then taking a gauze pad and playing fetch with the dog for a minute as a reward. The dogs were so happy to get attention and time out of the cage, they eagerly jumped on the table, even knowing they were going to have blood drawn out of their necks. They were very laid back, and nobody even needed to hold them during blood draws.

Indoors, in the lab room, the dogs were allowed to explore a bit after having blood drawn or during daily cage cleaning. They also met quite a few people through being on studies, having different staff clean and feed them, etc.

However, 99% of their lives were spent in a cage the size of a medium crate. At that time, there were no rules about dogs having to socialize with people and other dogs, be able to exercise or stretch their legs, etc.

Sometimes, some of the dogs had 2-3 years without being used for a study. Still, they had to live in those crates 24/7, because everything has to be 100% "standardized" for the FDA. One day, I spent $$$ on rawhides and Kongs for the dogs that were off-study for a year or more. But even these goodies were forbidden. The rawhides could change their blood chemistry.... and the toys could make them more active than the toy-less Beagles. The lab staff refused them, so I had to donate them to the shelter instead.

At another time, I volunteered to walk the dogs. There was a grassy interior courtyard, so I took them down there. The dogs were miserable and terrified of grass, the sky, the breeze, etc. They dragged me all the way back to their cages.

I studied up on animal research, and discovered how useless most of it is. How does a dog that lives 99% of its life in a crate and eats a standard kibble diet have anything in common with a human who eats, drinks, smokes, walks, works out, swims, hangs out with friends, etc.? Some meds that are great for humans kill dogs, even in minute quantities. Some meds require 10x higher doses in dogs than in humans.

I decided that human testing was the way to go. I quit the department with the Beagles and joined a dept. doing human clinical trials. And then I volunteered for the trials myself. I also became a vegetarian for 20 years. :-)

I became an omnivore again 5 years ago, but have never again worked in a lab that does animal research.

I'm very happy these Beagles are out of there, and I'm sure they have all gotten used to going outdoors by now.

Miss Margo said...

"Unless lack of attention was part of an experiment the animals usually get at least 15 minutes a day with someone as part of protocol."

In Spain...? I hope you are right, but my understanding is that the Spaniards are not the most forward-thinking, compassionate people as far as animal welfare is concerned.

April 29 brings up a very good point I've never considered: with the huge surplus of pit bulls, why AREN'T they used for animal research? I mean, you cannot give pit bulls away, there are so many. NYC AC would probably be happy to hand over every healthy pit bull in shelters tonight if Johnson & Johnson or Revlon offered to take them.

Miss Margo said...

And 15 minutes is not enough to maintain the basic mental health needs of a social creature like a dog. Rhesus monkeys become depressed and self-mutilate in isolation, even when they can see other monkeys in cages around them. See the Harlow experiments. I know that dogs are not monkeys, but they still have emotional and natural needs.

I do not mean to anthropomorphise (sp?) here, but life for these beagles is like being in a supermax prison--solitary confinement in a tiny cage 23 hours a day. The dog is also experimented on with chemicals or cosmetics which are painful or harmful.

S.K.Y. said...

Miss Margo,

Two reasons that I can think of:

1) Because there's a good chance they would kill their caretakers or the other dogs.

2) Because shelter dogs are almost never used for research for the following reasons:

a) There is no behavioral history on the dogs. Only VERY tolerant and docile dogs are suitable for lab research.

b) There is no reliable info on date of birth.

c) There is no info on what the dog has eaten or how much exercise it has had over its lifetime.

d) Shelter dogs have usually had a lifestyle as a pet and will not cheerfully adapt to living in a crate 24/7.

e) Shelter dogs, incl. pit bulls, tend to be all over the board as for weight, musculature, height, etc. Lab Beagles are standardized to the point where they are almost genetic clones of one another.

f) The general public tends to protest vehemently if there's a chance that little Fluffy could get lost and wind up in a research lab. Most labs don't want the bad publicity associated with using shelter dogs. There is also a national law that prohibits research use of any pet that was ever microchipped, even if the owner surrendered it to the shelter.

Because of this, lab-bred Beagles are by far the most common dogs used for research.

The pharmaceutical lab where I worked did use shelter animals in a department a few floors from mine. These were all used for terminal experiments. I heard the cats had mechanisms implanted in their brains, and I think some were blinded. The shelter dogs had glass windows and metal screw caps installed so researchers could sample their stomach contents and watch digestion. These implants normally got infected after a couple of weeks and the animals were euthanized. I won't elaborate, but I made sure that one particular dog slated for this research disappeared ("died" on paper) prior to his surgery... That story had a happy ending, until I realized that some other poor shelter dog was used to take his place. :-(

Dayna said...

I am so happy for those beagles to get out of the labs in Spain. I wish a group would start doing that for the Spanish Galgos. Now there's an abused breed of dog. Yes, the Spanish have issues with animal cruelty. Though they did shut down one of their oldest bullfighting arenas last year, so perhaps it's changing.

Rumpelstiltskin said...

It's so much about genetics and so many people disregard it. All pit nutters disregard genetics and temperament when speaking about pit bulls in public. In private, some pit nutters acknowledge that genetics and temperament determine how a dog will behave and genetics determines what a particular pit bull will be capable of. I believe the pit bull tamers and many dog trainers are guilty of this. They like to think, like Cesar Milan, that any dog can be rehabilitated, but it's just not true.

Unless a dog has been heavily trained, and even then there's no guarantee, anytime an instant response it required, a dog will use its genetically wired response and not its trained response.

Such a huge lie on normal people who don't own pit bulls. I've come to realize even hard-core pit nutters are in the dark because of their ignorance.

Enlightening how someone can release 40 unsocialized and mistreated Beagles from their crates after a long trip and not have a single incident or "tragic accident". Trade out a Beagle for 1 unsocialized and mistreated pit bull and let them out. I'd guess the pit bull would be killing 39 Beagles and have a go at some of the staff. Pit bull advocates would forgive the pit bull for its actions.

But hey, "It's all in how you raise them." Right? That quote, like so much of the other pit bull propaganda is a complete joke.

Heart warming video BTW. I enjoyed watching it.

DubV said...

I'm truly torn by all of this.

Anonymous said...

Hold on!

craven, this BB posting here is an AKC breeder connected to NAIA and the other puppy mill lobbying groups of AKC, including their pit bull advocacy.

She travels the web posting anti-humane group stuff and soliciting sympathy for her breeder friends (and trying to convince people that regulation isn't needed), including Patti Strand and the Responsible dog owner pit bull crowd.

See how she says that breeders aren't the problem?

They are. Without the breeders, we wouldn't have pit bulls. It is the breeders that have primarily lobbied against regulation, against tough dangerous dog laws, in support of dog fighting, in support of the mills, and in support of keeping up these attacks and pointing the finger elsewhere.

Some of them hide and pretend to be "humane" interests but that is just a trick to fool the legislators.

BB is the kind of breeder that uses no kill, for example, to dupe people into supporting breeders.

I think she thinks that she has a new group to dupe.

Anonymous said...

Branwyne, I find your posting somewhat disturbing.

It is not clear to me why you choose to mention HSUS but didn't mention the breeders that created the problems for those beagles and run the infrastructure they suffer in. The HSUSes and ASPCAes and some others arrival on the pit bull scene is quite recent, dragged in by the likes of Betsy Saul.

But these groups haven't created the pit bull situation that exists today, and they aren't the prime supporters.

The real heavy-duty perpetrators of the support of pit bull violence and breeding are the BREEDERS who profit from them, or are allied to those who profit from them (AKC in both worlds). Breeding lobbies have been at work since the 90s or earlier getting anti-bsl laws passed, weakening or eliminating dangerous dog laws, opposing breeder regulation.

They took over No kill to further their agendas.

The breeder lobby has spent countless millions to create a situation where people are helpless victims of "dog owners" for whom continuing the profit is paramount.

AKC, UKC, Responsible dog owner groups, puppy mill commercial breeder lobbying groups, the NAIA type groups, the breeder-trainer groups, swarms of breeders laboring for years to oppose regulation and protect the pit bull breeders.

One of the tactics they use is "blame someone else" so the breeders can keep raking in the money.

One of the allied supporters of the breeder lobby is the lab animal breeders, the beagle breeders that support the lab animal trade. These people lobby with AKC and the others against regulation. The beagle breeders lobby with the pit bull breeders.

They aren't "companies" they are breeders, many of them AKC breeders, that breed these beagles to sell to the labs. They support their fellow pit bull breeders against regulation, which is why they hate the humane groups that push for things like breeder regulation.

It was breeders that put those beagles in that lab in Spain (shipped from AKC breeders in America) and it is breeders that oppose humane regulation of lab animals and support the conditions in which those dogs were kept so they can keep breeding and selling as many as possible, volume sales.

You were cleaning up after the mess breeders made, and breeders laughed all the way to the bank, just like the pit bull breeders are.

I understand criticism of HSUS for letting Saul drag them into the touchy-feely pit bull scene, but criticizing them regarding these beagles isn't fair. As for HSUS and ASPCA and the others, they are involved in puppy mill rescues here where the condition of the dogs is worse than those beagles in Spain. It's not really fair to dump on them in this particular case. That's why the breeders like AKC hate them, because AKC makes its money from the puppy mill registrations.

It is not clear to me why you didn't discuss the reason those dogs have been suffering and the people who profit from it and oppose regulation (the breeders) and also why the infamous AKC BB suddenly shows up on the scene to try to put in support for breeders.

The BBs of the world want to keep breeders protected from responsibility for all this mess, and they try to be sneaky when they enlist others to let breeders off the hook.

Alexandra said...

Cazz, if you're right, if this BB is in any way connected with, allying with or supporting the NAIA, then s/he is (let me put it politely) disingenuous here. The NAIA is all for lab animal breeding, for the fur industry, and AGAINST BSL to control both the pit bull plague and pit bull misery.

Thanks for the tip.

Rag Doll said...

I don't know what it is but these days every Tom, Dick and Harry seems to be running a rescue service that rescues dogs from Spain. It seems to be a huge market. They charge high prices for these dogs too.

I thought it was just here in Europe but now you're telling me they're sending these Spanish dogs to the states too even though you guys euthanize a million shelter dogs a year?????

Maybe we should try to force the Spanish to put some regulation into place. You know, stop it at the source instead of cleaning up their never ending mess.

DubV said...

cazz, are you accusing this BB of being this one you are upset about simply because of a commonality in screen name between the two individuals on this site and others? If so that is a very weak form of evidence to make any accusation given the probability of two random people typing in the term "BB". In that light, and until you have actual evidence or an admission, I would simply stick to what they have written.

Packhorse said...

S.K.Y., thank you so much for sharing your experiences. There is a documentary film being released titled "Maximum Tolerated Dose," which profiles indidivduals who formerly worked in the animal lab industry but have chosen to leave. It's sure to be a touching and challenging film.

Cazz, I also want to thank you for sharing your info. I'm in agreement with you. Right after the Vick raid, the HSUS did feature pictures of the rescued beagles on their homepage. They also included a brief line about trained fighting dogs not being suitable for re-homing in a home environment. Unfortunately, their sensible position seems to be eroding under the pressure of pit bull fans disguising themselves as animal advocates. We should keep on exposing the true agenda of the pit bull fanatic crowd.

Branwyne Finch said...

Hi, all thanks for all your thought provoking comments. The Beagle Freedom Project raises many questions for me. Why is the suffering of some animals viewed differently than the suffering of others? No doubt that many pit bulls suffer horribly at the hands of abusive owners, but that is, once again, the fault of the pro-pit lobby that supports unregulated breeding and easy access to the dogs. These beagles are being bred, right here in the US, as lab animals for research...not as pets. As previous posters said, an intelligent, social animal kept isolated in a small cage without mental and physical stimulation is simply being tortured....add to that being subjected to painful medical procedures, and I think we can agree that this is an issue that should be at least on the radar of most humane organizations.

And, yes, there are numerous companies listed in Lab Animal Magazine which sell "colony bred dogs", along with other lab supplies.


The HSUS is against all BSL, even though it has been demonstrated that mandatory spay and neuter laws for pit bulls reduces the numbers of pit bulls euthanized in shelters. Pit owners do NOT respond to s/n education, it takes legislation to reduce the overbreeding of these dogs....if you sincerely want to reduce the suffering of pit bulls, you need to remove the financial incentives that results in criminals and thugs people breeding them and selling the puppies on CL for $100.00 each.

There are hundreds of animal welfare organizations and rescue groups expressing outrage and raising fortunes to combat dogfighting and rescue pit bulls.

Where are the advocates for lab beagles? I don't see any outrage in the online community of dog lovers over the fact that these dogs are being tortured. Are beagles somehow less worthy than pit bulls? Or is a campaign to save lab beagles less marketable than a campaign to save pit bulls?

Dogs are domesticated animals, evolving alongside us first as scavengers, then as tools, now as companions. Normal domestic dogs are wired to need and want human companionship, touch and afffection; we have created them this way. To then abuse this docility and trust by using them for lab experiments because these very traits make them easy to handle is unethical.

Is providing free services for pit bull owners (free vaccinations, free training, free s/n, free leashes and collars)a better use of donor money than raising awareness of the plight of dogs used for lab research? How so?

DubV said...

"Branwyne, I find your posting somewhat disturbing."

Branwyne was not trying to detail everything involved with everything. Of course, pit bull breeders and afficionados will put more emphasis on pit bull tragedy and make breed-specific excuses. Groups who supposedly work on behalf of all dogs, such as the HSUS, should be more level in their handlings of various breeds and capable of forming judgments based upon difference in breed response to torturous conditions. Therefore, this post served, I believe, to give that contrast in the form of a moving video with commentary, and I believe it succeeded.

DubV said...

Is a great deal of cash flowing from pit bull breeders? Most are dirt poor, finger sniffers, correct? There are a lot of them though, so those pennies can be rolled. To my knowledge, there isn't a large and well-organized pit bull breed association or club, otherwise I'm sure pit nutters would bring up their position papers in every other breath.

I might be wrong here, but I was under the impression that humane groups using general donations, wealthy pit lovers, and the collective horde of middle-class pit bull dingbat owners were the major source of money.

Branwyne Finch said...

The other issue this video raises for me is the assertion by pit bull advocates and dog "experts" that aggression in pit bulls is the result of mistreatment, neglect, or "lack or proper training". This video, along with the Russian fox experiment, should put this fantasy to rest. Beagles are chosen for this purpose because of their docility and lack of reactivity. It's genetic, plain and simple.

A dogs temperament is something its born with, and no amount of training, love, or socialization will fundamentally change it. Training and socialization will make it easier to manage, but it won't "cure" a dog that is a resource guarder, or who has a low threshold for biting when scared or aroused.

DubV said...

I wasn't aware that criticizing the HSUS and other humane groups was tantamount to advocating for their immediate dissolution. It seems that is a subtext here that is unwarranted. To be clear, I don't believe Branwyne is suggesting that humans and dogs would be better off without the HSUS. I think a more reasoned humane community is the drive here.

Further, I don't find these steps:

"Right after the Vick raid, the HSUS did feature pictures of the rescued beagles on their homepage. They also included a brief line about trained fighting dogs not being suitable for re-homing in a home environment."

to be large steps given the constant blocking of any BSL by the HSUS and other acts of pit nuttery.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for any confusion, but the above anonymous was not me.


Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

I can't help but think of all the potentially useful convict scum we have sitting around who could take the place of beagles. But if the Constitutional protection against "cruel and unusual punishment" prevents their utilization because it's too cruel, then isn't it too cruel for innocent dogs?

Things would be different if I were king.

Anonymous said...

the main thing that concerns me is that rescued beagles pose negligible threat, on the street, in the dog park , ball park, running loose , tied up, or any other way you might encounter them. a pitbull might be safe enough but you dont really know this and you certainly cant go by what the owner says. give me snoopy before sargent stubby any day , any street and i will be happy.

BB said...

Argh. I had a lovely long post typed out and I lost it as I attempted to save it. Fark.

Anyway, just wanted to comment that, not only am I not a breeder, I have actually never even owned an intact animal. I've been posting here for years and I challenge you to look through them and find evidence that I support breeders in any way. I must share my nickname with someone. I think it would be better to ask before you accuse, you know?

To clarify, I don't think pit breeders are not A problem, I just don't think they are THE problem. If the major and minor humane groups weren't all completely in line with the "they're just dogs and it's all how you raise them" mantra then the public would not be supportive of the pit bull lobby. If the public were not supportive of the pit bull lobby there would be legislation and restrictions in place and the breeders would be breeding illegally. This would at least slow the flow, if not stop it altogether.

I just find it such a terribly sad irony that the very groups that rescue other breeds are usually so supportive of the pit "rescue" fools. I already mentioned Cathy at Camp Cocker. How do you, as an animal welfare advocate, support the rescue of animals that are responsible for killing other animals by the tens of thousands every year? It's ridiculous.

Really, I think the one I lost was much more eloquent. Grrr.

Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

I witnessed another example of canine genetics last night.

Some distant neighbor, somewhere, allows their red bone coon hound to roam the countryside and I've seen him on my property no less than a dozen times, over a number of months. Aside from baying any coons or possums he might push up a tree, he doesn't bother livestock or hurt anything. Of course, my coyote/fox/stranger-dog hating border collie went nuts, and having just put my dog out to use the outdoor facilities before bedtime, I became aware of the hound by my dog’s furious barking.

I grabbed a spotlight and went to the porch to see what the ruckus was about, where I found my dog trying to run the invader off. Perhaps he couldn’t hear me over his own barking, or was just extremely worked up, but I had unusual difficulty recalling him. His barking was nonstop, and he charged over and over again, coming within a couple of feet of the hound every time. The hound, being what he is, completely ignored my dog and stood there looking at me, wagging his tail as if asking permission to come up and say hello.

I’m perturbed about the hound owner risking his dog’s safety by allowing him to run, but don’t know where the dog belongs. He’s an unneutered male – no surprise there – but he’s well fed and in excellent condition, very healthy and friendly. His situation appears pretty good, if only the owner would keep him home.

I couldn’t help but think about this event and the outcome if the hound had been a pit bull. The fact this dog is a hound makes things more complicated. I don’t have a problem shooting a pit bull.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

branwyne destroyed the nutter nurture excuses for dog aggression. pit bull aggression is in their DNA. try not to read too much more than that into this.

Illinois Pitbull Attacks said...

Branwyne was not trying to detail everything involved with everything.


branwyne destroyed the nutter nurture excuses for dog aggression. pit bull aggression is in their DNA. try not to read too much more than that into this.


The video is a great find Branwyne!

S.K.Y. said...

To Dude, I bagged your pit:

I feel your pain with the coonhound situation. I once lived on 10 gentrified acres outside a university town, but the wealthy neighbors in the area let their dogs run loose. I had a county permit to teach dog agility in my fenced property, but loose neighbor dogs would run up and down the fence barking and interrupting class. Also, I couldn't take my somewhat strange-dog-aggressive Border Collie outside the property for leash walks because of the strays.

After returning each of the dogs to their owners a few times (while staying "friendly") with no change in the situation, here's how I fixed the problem. Both of these solutions require confederates:

Solution A, for dogs with ID tags and contact info: Take the dog in your car to another county's impound shelter and meet a friend from that county at the shelter. She should take the dog into the building, turn it in as a "stray" and give her own address and ID as the finder. When the shelter contacts the owner, the owner will be shocked that his dog strayed sooooo far from home. After all, he was only letting it roam because it "stayed close to home." Once the owner has picked up the dog and paid the fine once or twice, I found that some owners are willing to listen to their "innocent-bystander" neighbor's advice (mine) about how to keep the dog safely confined.

Solution B: For dogs without ID tags. I enlist a nearby friend who does not know the dog's owner to help me drop off the dog at the local shelter. In this case, they'll tell the shelter the story that they "think" they know who the dog belongs to, and provide a name and address so the shelter can contact the owner. (This way, I don't get the owner's wrath, because they've had no dealings with the "Good Samaritan" who actually takes the dog in to the shelter).

When the owner goes to pick up the dog, they get a double-whammy of having to pay the impound fee, plus a surcharge for not having ID on the dog.

In some places, there is no fee at all to pick up your own dog from the shelter. However, the hassle of it generally makes the owners more amenable to using a fence or tie-out in the future.

Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

Thank you S.K.Y.; I've actually done this, but oy-veh... such a hassle, not to mention a little expense. A trip to our nearest shelter sucks about 20 bucks of fuel at today's prices, and the shelter actually charges 20 bucks to turn in a dog. No kidding... it doesn't matter if you're trying to do the right thing for someone else's dog; it's a disincentive for people to ditch their unwanted dog at the shelter, but they apply it to everyone. (I suspect they’ve heard, “It’s not my dog,” from people turning in their dog too often.) I estimate it cost me 50 bucks to take in 2 puppies dropped in my driveway not long ago. The time before that, the shelter decided they were full by the time I arrived with a healer mix. (My neighbor found a home for that one.) And before that, I dropped a couple of hundred at my vets on a very sweet, nearly dead lab that made it onto my porch, then another hundred plus on high calorie food to get her to a presentable weight before finding her a home. Even if none of the effort or expense mattered, I still burn the better half of a day which is something I can’t spare right now.

Our archery deer season just opened and rifle season is just around the corner. It certainly won’t be by my hand, but the folks who spend a few thousand on a hunting lease aren’t going to tolerate a dog ruining even one of their precious few hunt days. When I quit seeing the hound, I’ll just have to pretend his owner wised up.

The cycle is infuriating. I was surprised the last time a family pulled in to ask if I had seen their continuously at large dog – surprised they actually bothered to go looking for it. I honestly hadn’t seen or heard of it, and apparently they didn’t find it because several months later I had to brake hard to avoid hitting one of the two replacement puppies they’d gotten – two new dogs, in the road, continuously at large as well.

S.K.Y. said...


This is why I moved back into the town limits. I'm in a village of 7,000 outside a university town of 200,000. Both have extremely well-enforced leash and poop-scooping laws, and the city has an indoor-cat-only ordinance. Ahhhh, life is good here. I doubt I'll see one stray every 5 years here...

Anonymous said...

was watching american hoggers, last nite. so cool , pablum for cesars minions . the cambells were not doin so well with their hounds so the girl shows up with a mutanty thing . nope the old man sez , you r not putting that thing with my hounds . o course the senior dingbat vetoes her old man , so mutant mangler gets a chance to show what he can do . ya i quess it was jus the ticket . blood, but not too much, everywhere, and god-awlfull squellin- have to strike the right balance for the psychopathic and the overly-sensitive viewing public.

Anonymous said...

Snarky -
Yay! Bloodsports are back in fashion! And televised, so you kin watch 'em in the comfort o' yer own livin' room!



Branwyne Finch said...

It's so interesting to hear what the dog situation is in different parts of the country. In 17 years of living in my community, I have never encountered an unowned "stray" dog. We did once have a small dog that followed a neighborhood boy home one weekend years ago; AC was closed, so a neighbor kept her until Monday. She was chipped and belonged to someone in town.

Seeing a loose dog in my suburb is rare, to the point where people call AC pretty quickly. It is assumed the dog is lost and the owner is looking for it, and the occasional loose dog is usually quickly reunited with its owner via collar tags or a chip.

In 17 years of living in my town, I have only heard of ONE person who had an "accidental" litter of puppies....and that was an owner of a pit bull! Really, when I grew up it was common for people to not s/n, and neighbors dogs having puppies was common....that is generally where you got the family dog, someones dog had puppies, and you just brought one home. Today, where I live, it is exceedingly rare for anyone owning a mutt, or even a purebred, to allow ther pet dog to reproduce.

That is why the problem of pit bull abadonment is so glaring to me....to have so many dogs abandoned to the shelter system means that these dogs are 1. overbred like no other breed, and
2. are failing in pet homes. 3. are owned by people who have not accepted the social norms of pet ownership that exist currently in New England.

Anonymous said...


The combination of therapy and pharmaceuticals could do wonders for you.

Rumpelstiltskin said...


I only briefly watched American Hoggers. I would imagine a majority of the pit nutters don't want this show on TV. The show does put them in a bad light by merely showing what "work" they are good at. From what I recall, the "style" of hogging between the pit bull and the other breed of dogs was much different. I'll have to watch it again, but it's not easy. I'll have to get more into my blood sport mentality to watch the show. It turned my stomach a little because, well, what pit bulls do to hogs, they also do to people and other dogs.

I wonder how much they've edited out. There are a few pit bull hogging videos on Youtube and they are BRUTAL.

About the pit bull advocate vs. pit bull breeder vs. pit bull owner problem. I think pit bull advocates are the biggest problem, they're the ones spreading the propaganda, owners and breeders share the remainder of responsibility equally for the pit bull problem.

Then there's the percentage of them that had or currently own pit bulls who've actually attacked other dogs or people. They are the biggest jackazzes because they run around blaming victims and "the media" for the actions of their pit bull. They are the scum of the earth and should be jailed for years. Even then, they'd probably still sing the same song because they are that ignorant.

Anonymous said...

there is ignorance on the part of advocates and pit owners but i hardly think breeders or pitters who have mutants that attack are in the dark about their mutants. they maybe are in denial , or worse are just prepared to lie , the later i think most likely.
p.s. scum is a word that i would also use.

Packhorse said...

"American Hoggers" sounds like a nightmare of cruelty, but I'd rather this abuse be exposed to the general public rather than allow it to fester in secret.

How is letting your dog torture and maul another animal "hunting"? If traditional hunters are as ethical as they claim, they should be all over the "hawg dawggers".

Rumpelstiltskin said...


Yes, the show is basically dog fighting, except the other dog is a hog and not another pit bull.

I suppose we can compare it to a scenario where a dog is to be euthanized and instead of putting a needle in it, someone takes it into a backyard, chases it around, and beats it with a hammer until it's expired.

I am guessing that true hoggers who use pit bulls know exactly what their dogs are capable of and use proper precautions, but I could be wrong. I doubt they go around calling them nanny dogs or turning them into service pit bulls.

Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

"If traditional hunters are as ethical as they claim, they should be all over the "hawg dawggers".

Part 1:

I've slammed hog doggers and pit owners in shooter/hunting forums for years.

While wild hogs do need to be controlled in some areas, hog dogging is of little or no benefit with excessive risk and downside. But first, let’s consider how genuine that need to control feral hogs really is.

If these farmers/ranchers are really in desperate need to control hogs, how come they charge hunters upward of several hundred dollars for hunters to enter their property and work on their problem? The last thing these guys want screwing up their cash flow is coordinated eradication. States have even implemented laws making it illegal to transport and release feral hogs. So who would do such a thing? Could it be ranchers who want profitable “problems?”

As a hunter, I’ve never set out to harvest the smaller, weaker, possibly sick member of a herd. And depending on the game, I’ll take more than one if I can use it or know someone who can - as the bag limit allows. Hog doggers fail on that choice of animal and quantity. A rifle hunter set up over bait, a watering area, or just a well frequented location, can harvest multiple hogs in a single set. Hog doggers take only one. Rifle hunters can choose a trophy and/or large breeding sow to assist their control. Hog doggers take only one animal – whatever the dogs give them – small, old, sick, injured – whatever.

Pit bulls are generally garbage at locating and tracking; this is why hog doggers rely on hounds to locate and bay the hog, then release the pit(s) as their catch dog. So why use a catch dog at all? Once the hounds have the hog at bay, why not just end it right there? Move up with the hounds, aim, game over.

What the hog doggers usually won’t say in public forums is they prefer the “rush” of entering the fight with the struggling hog and stabbing it to death. What you’ll see in the shows and what they say in public is they prefer to catch it, tie it, carry it out, pen it and prep it for slaughter with commercial feeds. Perhaps some do, but I believe it’s a fractional percentage. Most hog doggers are in it for the sadistic barbarism.

Dude, I BaggedYourPit said...

Part II:

While it’s understandable that non-hunters might view hunters as being generally the same, this would be as inaccurate as considering pit bull owners in the same category as all other dog owners. The beagle owner clearly does not have the same purpose, perspective and expectation of a pet as the pit bull owner. The hog dogger seeking sadistic fulfillment has nothing in common with the deer hunter’s craft of ambush, where the animal never sees it coming and never knew what hit him. In hunt forums, a common boast includes the abbreviation, ‘DRT.’ Dropped Right There is an indication of the right load for the game with correct shot placement. A good hog dogging story will include an account of a long struggle, injured dogs, virtually everything a conscientious hunter would avoid. It’s two different worlds.

When it comes to hog control, hog doggers contribute little to nothing and are probably an overall negative. There are numerous accounts of shooters having their hunt ruined by idiots that scattered hogs and ruined sets. In some areas, the hog doggers sloppy pursuit of one hog typically bags none and spares many. And while hog doggers talk about “trash breaking,” meaning their dogs only target hogs, this claim is so unreliable that it sinks to the level of myth. Free running packs kill fawns, livestock, anything they cross paths with. Any hog dogger that denies this is a liar.

Feel free to call bullshit whenever you hear a hog dogger claiming to be part of the solution. Ask them if they’ve ever taken 4, 10, or even 20 hogs in one night. Skilled pen trappers do it all the time. Trappers never waste a minute torturing a caged hog while their pit bull learns its craft, and they have the option to feed them out or humanely dispatch them in the trap. Hog dogging is nothing but a bullshit excuse for hillbilly sadists to call themselves “hunters.”

Miss Margo said...

Great rant, Dude. I read it twice. Thanks for that; I really learned a lot.

I have seen a few hog dogging videos posted online. They were HIDEOUS. The hogs were huge but they were terrified and trying to hide or get away. I can still remember the screaming noise. The guys in the videos were very young MEATHEADS. I was so mad at them!

As you say, Dude, there is no reason to hunt hogs in this fashion. It is cruel and inefficient.

DubV said...

Interestingly, those wild hogs are more intelligent than most dogs, at least according to rankings by animal behaviorists I've read several places. Usual ranks go something like (from most to least intelligent non-human animal, of course with intelligence being subjective and from a human perspective):

1. great apes
2. dolphins
3. elephants
4. pigs

Sometimes crow is put above pig (just think how much time crows spend on the road eating dead stuff, yet you hardly ever see them hit themselves, of course wings help).

Of all the animals I eat, I feel the most guilty about pigs.

Back to the point, these hog doggers probably think their super smart pits are taking out those big dumb ugly stinky pigs. Heck the pigs are probably smarter than the hog doggers as well.

Garnet said...

Interesting stuff, Dude. I don't have a problem with people hunting invasive species in a humane manner (especially when said species can also be a food source) but using pit bulls to do it seems excessively cruel.

I've also noticed that professional pest eradicators do not use pit bulls to reduce hog populations. The professionals would presumably use the most efficient ways possible to control feral hogs, so their non-use of pit bulls indicates to me that they aren't needed. One professional actually uses labs, since they can be trained to ignore native wildlife and and come back when called (even if baying a pig). They won't latch onto any animals either.

Honestly, I don't see how hog hunting with pit bulls is any different from the bear- or bull-baiting activities of the 1800s. It's the same purpose: people watching pit bulls savage other animals for their own sadistic pleasure. In the case of those hog-dog rodeos where the dogs are allowed to catch the pigs, there is no difference at all. The bull or bear is just replaced by a pig.

Rumpelstiltskin said...


Thanks for clearing all that up! Great post. Using pit bulls to kill hogs is so inefficient and inhumane. I'm still surprised they have it on TV.

It's official, hogging with pit bulls is a blood sport.

Anonymous said...

the croc hunter use to send his dog suki after the occasional hog and it seemed like he killed the hog right there and then . seeing the way these american hoggers treat their hogs, after being chewed up first , gives me the creeps and no faith that the hogs are given a humane death much later on . not that i have anything against hunting or pest control , as long as its done properly and for the right reasons .