Friday, April 1, 2011

genetics 101: it's all how you breed them

i'm a fan of Morning Call columnist, Paul Carpenter. for the second week in a row now, he has taken on the pit nutter propaganda machine. in this week's column "Dog ferocity is breeding, not training", Paul Carpenter asks "Can you train a pit bull to point?"

"Until somebody shows me pit bulls that have been trained to point, I'll stick to my view that it's breeding, not training, that makes them what they are. And I'll stick to my view that people who decide to buy pit bulls, when they have many breeds from which to choose, do so for reasons other than wanting to have a nice family pet."
Paul Carpenter

one of my mixed breed dogs points. i didn't teach him that, he just started doing it one day around the age of 2. when he is in the point, i can't break the spell. i have him seen hold a point for over 10 minutes. it's pretty impressive. he has a fabulous nose and is faster than lightening. he can catch any mouse, rat, squirrel, rabbit that he sets his mind to, but he won't kill them - no matter how much i encourage him to do so (i have a rat problem). the second the rodent squeals, he releases. but if his quarry is disoriented enough, my slow clumsy malamute mix is right there for the kill. i didn't teach him to do that either.

Carpenter's question prompted me to resurrect an old blog post from last summer.

originally published august 5, 2010
watch the video again but this time substitute the word POINT with the word FIGHT, substitute the word POINTER with the word FIGHTER and substitute the word HUNTING with the word FIGHTING.


Anonymous said...

So true! Breed predicts behavior.

A week after I picked up my Chesapeake puppy, I took him to the park for some play time. I wanted him to stroll on and off lead, to hear a whistle and come to my clapping - to see ducks and water for the first time. I thought he might even get his feet wet if he was interested, but it was March and the water was still freezing, so that wasn't really the point of our outing.

He waddled along on the grass and things were going well. He waddled up to the edge of the water with his tail wagging as he spotted some ducks swimming on the other side of the pond. I sat down expecting him to get his feet wet and explore the bank, but in he went and off he goes! I clapped and called but there went my tiny pup, chugging along with nothing but his little chocolate head above water, oblivious to the cold. I’d like to say that I was proud, but I was worried. I mean, he was so little… 10 weeks old! I slapped the water and called to him until he finally turned and made his way back, pausing to pick up a mallard feather near the edge of the pond. While I was still trying to shrug off my anxiety about my tiny pup on a big pond, he obviously couldn’t have been more proud to deliver the feather.

A short time later, the friend I had been waiting for showed up with her Chessie, and I told her the story about my wet pup. She laughed and basically said, “Well duh! Chessie puppy!”

My dog is almost exactly as described in the written breed descriptions of Chesapeakes, and those descriptions were written long before he was born, without any consideration of what I might want or expect of him. The breed, along with his specific field trial breeding, has made him who he is, as much as anything I’ve done. My dog is living proof of this trainer’s statement. Breed absolutely does matter and is a major predictor of who the dog will be.

Anonymous said...

Dogs are selectively bred BY MAN for specific behaviors and competences.

Pit bulls have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been selectively bred to be aggressive, to kill, to inflict maximum damage, to tolerate pain.

Pit bulls are FIGHTING DOGS.

Pit bulls were NEVER NEVER NEVER bred to be pets, service dogs, or anything BUT fighting dogs.

These selectively bred behaviors, physical characteristics, and "skills" are why pit bulls are attacking and killing people and pets.

This is NORMAL AND EXPECTED behavior for pit bulls. Man bred them to do these things and act these ways.

Anyone who tries to claim that pit bulls are "wigglebutts" or "just need love" or "must be trained or abused to be aggressive" either is incredibly stupid and has no understanding of dog breeding OR is a pit bull breeder trying to lie and hide the truth so they don't get regulated.

DepthCharge said...

This is so true. I've seen pointer puppies "point" at 8-10 weeks of age - they can't help it, because it's in their DNA. You can't train that into a dog.

Funny story: I had the privilege of adopting a Golden Retriever from a local rescue. He couldn't help himself - he HAD to retrieve SOMETHING. Especially when he was excited or happy. So one day my new neighbors stop over to say hi, and I invite them in. Well my golden is so excited to see new people that he runs into my bedroom and comes out with one of my bras in his mouth - HA!! Bless his heart! I was horrified at the time.....

CKing said...

THANK YOU FOR THIS POST. The nutter's denial of genetics and breeding INFURIATE ME.

This is a link to a photo from an Italian Spinone breeder advertising that his dogs have that natural, inborn, genetic pointing instinct.

This is a quote from dogman Floyd Boudreaux that includes a little example that pit bull puppies will display their genetic heritage as puppies and how the NATURAL BORN KILLERS pass their heritage on.

"...He came here and I gave him another pup that I had here in the blacksmith shop, I called that pup Spook, She was out of a litter that killed each other when they were still very young. He kept her for about two months at the most, when she came in season for the first time he brought her back and I bred her to Elis. They had four pups; three black and one brindle, two males and two females. One of the males was Bullyson, the other was Eli Jr., and the brindle was Brendy. She bit the hardest of them all and she was the biggest; she could break a dog down in less than three minutes. Brendy was awesome, a bad bulldog! As bas as a man has ever seen. She beat a dog one time like she was having breakfast..."

CKing said...

Depth Charge...TOO!

Anonymous said...

They do weave in and out of genetics by using the Nanny and dog fighter culling methods schtick.

Still 106 Americans have been killed by Pits since 2004, yet they aren't human aggressive!

Anonymous said...

Excellent points made about hunting dogs.

Jake said...

Excellent heads-up on breeding 101. This article should be required reading for anyone wanting a gripping dog.

Friends Administrator said...

I like to say if genetics didn't count we wouldn't see any bald men. Walk up to the next bald man you see and tell him that he failed to get enough TLC, if he had he wouldn't be bald. Guess all the genetics research going on in the world is for naught, huh?

DubV said...

I shouldn't post before I drink coffee. I kept finding dumb mistakes and deleting.

Good post. I like the Paul Carpenter article as well. He takes nutter start premises and shows that they lead to an impossibility. The nutters are a lost cause here in terms of actually understanding a logical argument in light of their presuppositions. But hopefully enough of the rest of humanity gets it.

In a few debates with nutters, I've temporarily conceded the human aggression point. Then tell them that even if pits are not human aggressive, all else being equal they are still more dangerous to people (and not only because of size). The two main reasons are that they want to attack dogs and their attack style. In a country full of people with dogs who defend their dogs from attacks, pits will intersect with humans in a violent way more often. Lastly, if fighting breeds are bred to be tenacious and bite-hold-shake, then they are inherently more dangerous even if they do not attack humans more frequently.

Most nutters will not concede any of these points, they are a lost cause. They show how little they understand dogs by actively ignoring dog genetics (or they try to trace the pit bull family tree back so far that they find an ancestor that was not a fighter, if they go a little farther they'll hit plant life). If someone will not even concede the most obvious starting premise for discussion, then they should just be openly mocked as imbeciles.

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

"If someone will not even concede the most obvious starting premise for discussion, then they should just be openly mocked as imbeciles."

i try

Small Survivors said...

"if they go a little farther they'll hit plant life." LOLOLOLOL

I wholeheartedly agree that there is no point arguing with nutters. I've got a new name for that now thanks to skeptifem "woo group mentality."

I also think that when people begin researching because they wonder about the hype, they need to find this stuff to rebut all the BS from the nutters. Until a couple years ago, there was nothing but "its all how you raise them"

This is another great find, Craven! And this video should be brought up yearly! It makes it all so clear.

I love that Paul Carpenter went and asked hunters and hunting dog enthusiasts what they thought.

Thank you!

Small Survivors said...

LOL Craven, I didn't see the "i try" at first.

Yes, you certainly do, and you're very good at it!

Jake said...

Snack sized dog said:

"Yes, you certainly do, and you're very good at it!"

Indeed - but even with "Daddy Craven" attempting to enlighten them, most nutters don't get the wakeup call until the mutant tries to kill them - and even then they persist in denial. Like the crazy old couple who were mauled by their pit bulls and attempted to blame it on a mountain lion. Animal control figured it out pretty quickly when they discovered the bloody fighting dogs at the home.

Jake said...

Come to think of it, the crazy old nutter couple would be a great item to expand upon in a future blog entry...

scurrilous amateur blogger said...

it is the rare nutter who is open to enlightenment. i don't expect to change nutter minds and i don't try, so i rarely argue with them - shaming and mocking is the only way to go.
the best i hope to accomplish is to slow the bleeding of common sense when it comes to dogs. all we can do is have the truth available to those who have not yet been brainwashed. the truth is out there, it's just buried in lies.

* said...

I find it amazing that the more in depth articles like this one are rarely if ever attacked by Fuzupf. Maybe he knows he cannot refute this fact?